The discussions between the Pius X-Brotherhood (FSSPX) and the Vatican are drawing to an end and never has FSSPX been so close to a full reunion. The possible reconciliation between the Vatican and FSSPX is making the Jews very nervous.
The relationship between FSSPX and the Jews was already hostile before the Williamson affair in 2009. In 2006 FSSPX was accused of anti-Semitism in a report on Traditional Catholicism by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) (see also here). The allegations include Holocaust-denial, spreading of conspiracy theories about Jewish domination and negative stereotyping of jews. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) has branded FSSPX as being “mired in antisemitism.” FSSPX is negative about the French revolution and its republican ideals and is positively inclined towards the Vichy Regime (1940–1944), which was strongly Catholic and imposed anti-Jewish policies in France. FSSPX officially has no political affiliations, but there are strong links with leading members of the National Front, like Marine Le Pen.
FSSPX is basically a protest-movement within the Roman-Catholic Church, founded by the late Mgr. Lefebvre in 1970 as a reaction to the outcome of Vatican II. According to FSSPX, Vatican II has led to the dominance of the cultural left in the Church and important breaches with tradition, especially the Holy Mass. Vatican II has led to a more positive official attitude towards Jews: “Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God.” The prayer for the conversion of the Jews on Good Friday was dropped.
This one-sided outreach towards Jews has until now not been met by similar gestures from the Jewish side, despite persistent insulting religious texts against Christ (and Christianity). In 2007 Cardinal Francis George of the Archdiocese of Chicago had the courage to bring op this topic with a call of a more two-sided approach, mentioning as particularly offensive “descriptions of Jesus as a “bastard.”
It does work both ways. Maybe this is an opening to say, “Would you care to look at some of the Talmudic literature’s description of Jesus as a bastard, and so on, and maybe make a few changes in some of that?”
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The Jewish side has only continued its criticism of the Roman Catholic church, especially about its role during World War II. Despite the fact that during the war Abraham Foxman, the director of the ADL, was sheltered by a Polish catholic woman who raised him as one of her own, he remains hostile to the Catholic Church. The church is accused by Jewish organizations of “not doing enough” for the Jews. In particular, Jews condemn the beatification of Pope Pius XII on the grounds that he did not not do enough to help the Jews. The fact is that the Church had no power to stop either the war nor the persecutions, including that of their own institution, since during WWII the Nationalist-Socialists attacked Church institutions in Poland and the Netherlands when they defied the Germans. Nevertheless, the Holocaust is a recurring theme in Jewish-Catholic relations.
From the start of talks between FSSPX and the Vatican in 2009, a constantly recurring theme has been that Jews are on the offensive and the Vatican is on the defensive. In 2009 there was a huge outrcy when the excommunication of Richard Williamson was lifted and there was intense pressure from the media to excommunicate him on the basis of Holocaust denial. But Benedict XVI stood fast, because, although Holocaust denial is officially rejected, it is no dogma of the church and can therefore not be a cause for excommunication. In this instance, the Roman Catholic church has defied the current cultural zeitgeist where critizing Jews is a guarantee for legal prosecution and results in social isolation and economic deprivation.
Now that the talks between FSSPX and the Vatican are drawing to a conclusion, Jewish pressure is mounting against the Vatican. On September 19, Foxman declared that “It would be unthinkable to allow a Catholic breakaway sect that includes a Holocaust-denying bishop, Richard Williamson, to be reintegrated into the church while still being allowed to promote anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism — which they have been doing for years in their teachings and on their web site.”
But unfortunately for Foxman, the unthinkable is drawing nearer day by day. The merging of FSSPX into the church will be a victory for Traditional Roman Catholicism and a setback for Jewish-Catholic relations. Quite possibly it heralds a permanent retreat from the fruitless and one-sided talks with Judaism.
Facing the Future as a Minority
Was the Immigration Act of 1924 Illiberal?
Bishop Richard Williamson 911 Lies and Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15xyzd45uRA
“I hope none of you believe that 911 was what is was presented to be… It was absolutely for certain not two airplanes which brought down those two towers, They were professionally demolished by a series of demolition charges.”
He then tells everyone to look up 911mysteries dot com.
No wonder the Jews hate him.
Why is everyone still playing pretend on this?
Are you sure this is good for us? Who will influence who? Will the politically correct priests influence PSSX or vice versa?
I just checked my church nearest me of this order.
The website is completely in Spanish. What’s the point of these people? So they are anti-semitic? Anti-semitism doesn’t do anyone a load of good if they are crazy and want to unite everyone into one race, and are disrespectful that we are in the United States.
In order for the SSPX to be reconciled with the Vatican it would have to accept the dogmatic changes of Vatican II. Should that happen, a schism would occur within the SSPX.
The Vatican wants to reintegrate the SSPX due to the failure of Vatican II, which has become obvious to all. Instead of a ‘New Springtime’ it has proven to be a Church killer – emptying pews, lower numbers in the collection plates. Meanwhile, the SSPX and its church-approved offshoot, the FSSP have full seminaries and packed pews on Sunday – more evidence of the growing demand for the True Mass.
@Scotsman:
Quite correct. I myself have abandoned the church for this very same reason of pandering to the jews and cultural distortion. I’m going to look into SSPX’s churches. Does anyone have any suggestions?
@ned: The Society of St. Pius X has chapels in many parts of the US and Europe, plus a few in Africa and Asia. Check out http://sspx.org/chapels.htm
Yeah….
With the church nearest to me being completely IN SPANISH.
Bishop Richard Williamson’s disputed statement was based on his personal views and not the policy of the FSSPX. Furthermore, Vatican under Pope John Paul II (his mother was Polish Jew) and Pope Benedict XVI has become another France under Israel-Firster Sarkozy (his mother was also Jewish). Vatican, however, did rubbed-in Israeli nose on a few occasions. For example, Vatican delegate did not join the dozen western delegates who walked-out from Durban II conference during Iranian President ahmadinejad’s speech.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2009/04/22/durban-ii-crucification-of-freedom-of-speech/
@Rehmat:
That’s mere conjecture, Rehmat. Mother’s Jewish facial features? And an affinity for things Jewish? As a youth, he did play soccer with a Jewish team, but this is grasping at straws.
By the way, a while ago you stated that Ayn Rand got out of the USSR by dint of her father’s friendship with Yagoda. I’ve not been able to find anything to corroborate this, and the link you suggested went nowhere.
@Rehmat:
Oops, here’s the link I was drawing from:
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-religions-christianity-penetration-pope-john-paul-2-jewish.html
@Rich Pearson:
A classic. The sort of sermon that should be heard in far more parishes. A brave and a good man.
The Jewish criticism of Christianity, in general, and the RC Church specifically will only cease if one of two things happen: Christianity ceases to exist; or every criticism of Christianity is met with criticism of Judaism.
The term Judeo-Christian tradition must be purged from our vocabulary. The only connection between Christianity and Judaism is that the latter has been trying to destroy the former for 2,000 years.
For those who may have forgotten, in Jewish controlled USSR, churches were destroyed, both Orthodox and RC, but synagogues were left in tact. Since the downfall of the USSR, Russians are considered “anti-semitic”. This corresponds with the return or gravitation of millions to the Orthodox church. Clearly this has been healthy for Russians, and in all liklihood, would be good for the rest of the white population.
@Masculinity: Really? Then post the link.
At the risk of being off-topic, I do think the ‘holocaust’ has become a key issue in Jewish-Christian relations. If relations were phrased in purely theological terms, no-one would take Judaism much more seriously than Zoroastrianism as a debating partner: there is no Jewish Thomas Aquinas, after all, to debate with.
The idea of refounding the former Christendom on a basis of rejection of all that has gone before derives largely from the holocaust mythos. Take for example, Adorno’s statement that ‘after Auschwitz to write poetry is barbaric’: yet poetry is essential to the creative strength of a culture. Taken literally, his statement is suicidal, and he was not one to undervalue the significance of culture.
Yet when I looked more closely at ‘holocaust’ histories for that reason – Hilberg, Gilbert, etc, what I found – to my surprise – was largely lurid stories, confessions beaten out of people by torture and hearsay. Yet Gilbert – the biographer of Churchill – is well able to evaluate sources and does so in his other work. This is brought out in Carlo Mattogno’s and Juergen Graf’s work in particular. And shockingly, all this is excluded from mainstream academic discourse and media. I think to dogmatically deny the holocaust stories – as Bishop Williamson did in an interview widely circulated on youtube – is not appropriate in the current state of research, but to stress that they are dubious is quite reasonable.
Apologies if this is tangential to the main story, but I think it is important to the broader issues.
@Lancashire lad:
Whenever any-one brings up the Hollowhoax – I ask them about the REAL geneocide of millions and millions and MILLIONS of Russian Christians, by JEWS, under Talmudic Soviet Russia.
They never know what I’m talking about. I tel them to look it up. I do not hide my disdain and digust. I ask WHY they don’t care about the genocide of millions and millions and millions of Christians, by Jews. I never get an answer.
With all the complaints by some Jews of the Catholics not doing enough to help the Jews during the war ( I guess they mean WW2?) can someone tell me what the Jews did to help the Jews during the war. There must have been a lot of rich Jews living outside of Europe back then. The Rothschild come to mind. They are very, very rich and as far as I know still Jewish? And there must have been others. And if a polish nanny could save one Jew surely the the less well off Jews could have helped out too. Nanny’s don’t make much money yet she raised Foxman during a friggen war!!!!
@Curmudgeon:
“This corresponds with the return or gravitation of millions to the Orthodox church. Clearly this has been healthy for Russians, and in all liklihood, would be good for the rest of the white population. ”
If religion has been healthy for them in the last 20 years, then it’s because they were deprived of it for 75 years and it is now sort of a healing process, after years of communism.
We in the West have not been deprived of it, and can see religion for the useless rhetoric that it is. At least some of us can.
It is uplifting to see how the Foxmans of this world begin to get ever more hysterical as less and less people believe in all that utter nonsense. Like that perverted idiot Wiesel, or the Auschwitz gas chamber which the Poles have built in 1948.
Ave, Bishop Williamson! Here is a fine and upright man!
Michael Hoffman replies to the SSPX:
http://revisionistreview.blogspot.com/2011/08/now-comes-great-divide.html
@Masculinity: Learning some actual facts about the SSPX, Masculinity, is not a particularly arduous undertaking. Edward has already given you a link; going from its subdirectory to the main one should be a breeze. From there it’s simply a matter of reading words—English words.
If you don’t like those words, try those at any or all of these sites (all in English): ; ; ; .
If you wish your remarks to continue to consist of complaints, no one here can divert you from your present course. But if you truly want to discover some hard facts about the SSPX, you can no longer say that a language barrier stands in your way.
Trying to get the links to appear yet again.
http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/index.htm; http://www.sspx.co.uk/; http://sspxasia.com/; http://www.dici.org/en/.
@Rob: “We in the West have not been deprived of it, and can see religion for the useless rhetoric that it is. At least some of us can.”
I do not wish to get into a philosophical debate on religion. However, if it is useless rhetoric, why do all societies invent a religion of some sort? Whether it is the Gi’itchi Manitou of North American Indians or the Dalai Lama, highly developed societies or stone age tribes, religion exists in some form.
I would suggest that, as Dr. MacDonald has argued about the Jewish attack on European culture, Jews have, in fact, attacked and crippled Christianity in. It is impossible to separate Christianity from European culture over the last 1,000 years. Each has had an effect on shaping the other. This includes banishing Jews from countries/kingdoms.
With the Jewish attacks on us over the past 100 years, we too have been “deprived of it,” only at a snail’s pace. Most people don’t recognize it. The Lutheran Church of my youth is unrecognizable today. The message used to be the Jews broke the covenant with God and are no longer the chosen, Christians are. There was an under current message to be wary of Jews. Today, Jews are the chosen, our buddies, and any questioning of that means you are anti Semitic, and “need help”.
Jews are destroyers, and would have no qualms about destroying both you and I if we were to get in their way.
“destroying both you and I” should be “destroying both you and me”.
Trenchant
I believe his Mother’s parents were named katz and converted to Catholicism. The Pope never made any secret of his familie’s Jewish friends and relatives.
Lots of Eastern European Jews converted or just left Judiasm in the 19th century. Usually it was because they did not like the strict orthodox lifestyle that ruled everything not just religion.
Young men often abandoned Judiasm because they would rather do well paid mechanical and blue collar work instead of starving as street peddlers in obedience to the Jewish taboo against anything that smacked of , horrors of horrors physical labor.
Another reason young men left was to escape the arranged marriages. Middle class businessmen often left Judiasm because the numerous food, cookware and table ware kosher taboos meant they could not associate with non Jewish customers, vendors etc.
Surrendering to Jewish demands is useless as they always escalate. The Church should stand firm against any further demands.
The only way the Church will fill the pews with anything but hispanic welfare slugs is to bring back the Latin Mass.
My Irish ancestors starved in Ireland from 1600 to 1830 when they came to America because they refused to convert from Catholics to protestant.
All it took for my family to leave the Church was the elimination of the Latin mass.
@Curmudgeon:
—Martin Luther
I am no longer a believer, but it strikes me as intellectually dishonest that people who are believers want to believe that there still existst a covenant between God and the Jews after the coming of Jesus. Either there is a new covenant or there is not a new covenant. It might make people uncomfortable, but one cannot have it both ways.
Also, people should stop pretending that the Judaism of today is the religion Jesus followed as a child and young man. Today’s Judaism, much of it evolved as a reaction against Jesus and Christianity, is the child of the Pharisees, the people against whom Jesus was so implacably opposed.
Finally, Christianity IS morally superior to Judaism, and believers should stop pretending the two are equal. Christianity demands that its adherents love everyone, Christian or non-Christian equally, although they might fall short of their intent. Judaism only imposes upon its adherents that they love their fellow Jews. While Jews may whine that Christians should have done more for Jews during WWII, they didn’t enjoin upon their brethren that they come to the aid of Christians when they were persecuted under communism.
@Eva: I believe that you are almost certainly correct on both counts. Would that the Pollyannas at Rorate Caeli would get wise to the facts!
@Felix Grubel: Your understanding of the Faith is precise and your explanation of it is clear and accurate, Mr. Grubel. I hope that, one day, your heart follows where your head leads. Any SSPX priest or chapel would certainly be the best place to start.
As for World War II, I suspect you already know, as Sandy’s comment above implied, that Europe’s Catholics, both clerics and laypeople, did far more to help Jews—usually at the peril of their own lives—than other Jews did. At least half a dozen studiously documented books that demolish the Jewish establishment’s witting slanders about Pius XII have already been published, yet the New York Times and the rest of the Tribal media continue to lie—and millions of ovine Americans continue believing them.
@Curmudgeon:
“However, if it is useless rhetoric, why do all societies invent a religion of some sort?”
(Same tired old questions that have been answered countless times.)
Societies invent religions, or as I prefer to call it, spiritualism, in order to answer questions for which mankind as yet has no answers. For example, one of the basic ones is the question of whether there is some sort of existence after death. Instead of admitting that no one knows the answer to that question, people prefer to imagine there is a supernatural answer.
It’s really that simple, in my opinion.
@Felix Grubel:
“Finally, Christianity IS morally superior to Judaism”
What good is morality if you have no power, free will, or self determination? Seems pretty useless to me.
@Mari:
Thanks for your reply. I was aware of Pope John Paul’s closeness to the Jews, but would have imagined that due diligence would have been performed prior to his nomination. That said, I’m not Catholic, so do not pretend any great expertise on this.
Americans, Anglo-Saxons and Anglicans should read The WASP Question by Andrew Fraser http://www.arktos.com/books/our-publications/andrew-fraser-the-wasp-question.html I just finished reading it and found the answers to all my questions as to why the church became the enemy. The good professor also explains how the Anglo-Saxon Church was replaced by the new church, the State. Fascinating. Arktos is a new publisher and is one of ours. Check it out http://www.arktos.com/books.html
@Guy Francis:
Re: what the moronic Superior said.
Well I guess that’s it for Catholicism for me; it’s totally off my list – unless the Superior finds himself agreeing with Williamson.
I’m going back to the old pagan roots; at least there was no “schisms” and infighting amongst themselves, and they were probably VERY racially aware.
@Guy Francis: For his trouble, an irritating, sexually promiscous black agitator gets named after him, and gets a 120 million dollar Chinese made statue directly in line between the Jefferson Memorial (a fine man except for the miscegenous relations with his negro slaves) and the black house.
@Pierre de Craon: Mr. de Craon: I have never understood the appeal of the latin mass – isn’t English easier for the supplicants?
@Abe Goldstein:
No it isn’t. The TLM is the most beautiful thing this side of heaven and now it has been protestantized. 1500 hundred years of culture desecrated.
The old way for the Latin mass involved bilingual missals, prayer books and mass cards. A missal is a prayer book that involves only the various mass services, funeral, different festivals etc.
The mass card was about the size of a tabloid paper in heavily laminated plastic. It was used for just the one mass that was being said that day.
The Latin was in red. The English in black. So Catholics learned the latin as they went along. If families went to mass every sunday, the children learned it quickly.
Anyone who could read could read the bilingual pages.
So it was totally easy to learn.
A great, great advantage was that when Catholics go to high school and took French and Spanish the first year was an easy A because they were already familiar with vocabulary, verbs and grammar.
It was really quite easy. Catholics did not really have to study Latin, they just absorbed it without having to think about it.
@Masculinity:
I applaud your choice of words using the term “good for us”. This simple term has the subtlety and deniability that is necessary for the millions of individuals out there who are waking up, but don’t feel able to speak out. A term like this thrown into conversation to test the water with someone else.
Not enough to be accused of using a code word by an enemy, because “good for us” is common vocabularly. Nor enough for one person to be sure of another person. But enough to begin a process between two people, that will allow them to eventually speak openly.
The potential of this is huge…it shouldn’t be missed. The difference is between millions of isolated individuals not speaking up and not likely to in the near future; and that of networks of awake people beginning to form in localities, and slow evolutions kicking off.
For this to happen would be good for us.
@fender: Understanding the true superiority of Christianity to Judaism is the first step back to those things.
@mari: OK, that makes sense. Don’t any churches still offer it?
SSPX is not something we should defend. As others have noted (and I have seen this first hand as I have attended an SSPX mass) they wholeheartedly support multiracialism. Furthermore, any respect for their anti-Jewish stance is lost when you recognize that their solution to Jewish-Gentile (Christian) relations is to convert them to Catholicism! This is exactly why Nietzsche attacked the “anti-semites” of his day for being so stupid and hypocritical. Converting a Jew to Christianity doesn’t make him not Jewish, nor would this EVER happen on a large scale given the huge benefits that identity has that would be lost to them by doing so.
So essentially, SSPX would never support any realistic solutions to dealing with the Jewish Problem, and they are most certainly anti-white in their beliefs.
Similarly, we should not support leftists attacking Israel for being racist since that is also hypocritical and we cannot and will not reap any benefits from it.
@Greg Paulson:
“Similarly, we should not support leftists attacking Israel for being racist since that is also hypocritical and we cannot and will not reap any benefits from it.”
The presence of hypocrisy is irrelevant. If there’s a case to be made for mutual empathy regarding homelands, then let them be the ones to come forward and make it. Right now they don’t….we do all the work and get nothing back. Mirroring the tactics of the other side is a valid and often powerful strategy. It also requires understanding the enemy, which is again a powerful thing to do.
It is not good for us, either to see Israel destroyed (where will they all go when the time comes?), or to see Israel succeed in becoming Greater Israel. However, it is not good for us, eitehr, to see a resolution to the Palestinian/Jewish conflict. That conflict is helping to wake up millions of whites, who would otherwise never have been possible to reach. Where they have brilliantly found ways to bamboozle whites by concealing it within Western society, the Israel situation makes the hypocrisy of Jewish attitudes, at least in regard of Israel vs West, blatent to all but the most dissonant.
But once someone begins to *see* it, once the veil of professed perfection and victimhood is lifted, all the other more subtle and better concealed instances within our own societies become clearer.
so we need that conflict, it is literally a godsend. If the task before still looks near impossible on some days, just think how bad it would have been if not for that ME conflict. Many of us would never have fully woken up without that.
Another reason we need the conflict is that it keeps what would otherwise be a hugely effective and focused and enormously resourced activist army from giving us their undivided attention. With that conflict, the vast bulk of their time and resources…and creativity ….is focused on preventing the delegitimization of Israel and combating Arab influence in the West.
Without that diversion, we might’ve had no chance at all to get back up off the floor at this point.
I’m not religious but if I were, I’d regard the ME situation as proof of a miracle. That God wants us to survive because he sees our civilization and our values as the pinnacle of his creation.
In June 2011, Pope Benedict XVI installed David Maria Jaeger 56, an Israel-born Zionist Jew converted to Catholism, as a prelate auditor of the Roman Rota, a papal law court that serves as the chief appellate court of the Catholic Church…..
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/pope-appoints-israeli-zionist-to-vatican%e2%80%99s-highest-court/
Mr Stuyvesant hasn’t done his homework. Mr Foxman doesn’t stop complaining, because he never stops complaining. The SSPX Superior General Bishop Bernard Fellay has fallen into the hands of Mr. Maximilian Krah. The latter now has control over the finances of the SSPX. He has also seen fit to give Bishop Fellay advice regarding the case of Bishop Williamson. Mr Krah is or was until recently a Jew. The inability of the Catholic Church and the SSPX under Bishop Fellay to admit the truth about the so-called Holocaust is an international disaster. As to certain other remarks, the SSPX cannot be expected to administer the sacraments only to white Americans. The surrender of the SSPX to the Vatican would be yet another surrender to Zionist power. Is there any hinterland left?
@Abe Goldstein: I appreciate your question, Mr. Goldstein, and the patent seriousness that lies behind its asking. Prayer is inherently easy: one need only turn his mind and heart to God. In addition, every Christian prayer of universal applicability or appeal has a vernacular form in every language known to man—pre-Vatican II missionaries saw to that when they went to godforsaken places like the Andaman Islands or the Iroquois-dominated backwoods of immediate post-Columbian North America.
Latin, however, is the language of the Western Church’s public prayer, and the Western (aka the Latin) rite is the normative though by no means the only authentic, legitimate rite of orthodox Christian worship. At the risk of sounding old-fashionedly pious or pietistic or just simple-minded on this hard-nosed and worldly site, it was for a mere nineteen centuries the opinion of the Church’s fathers, doctors, and hierarchs that the Latin language was—by virtue of its antiquity, its association with the Church’s beginnings, and, yes, even its deadness—the language of public worship both best expressive of the Church’s mission in this world and most inherently pleasing to the object of its worship: the triune God.
I apologize, Mr. Goldstein, for making this anything but a short answer—something I am constitutionally incapable of giving, alas—but the plain truth is that I haven’t scratched the surface of giving you a genuinely full reply. For that I could do no better than suggest that you drop a note to anyone at the SSPX through one of its websites. Otherwise, had I simply written that I very largely agreed with the replies that buckle and mari had already given you, I might have taken up less of your time and perhaps provided you virtually as much useful information. Thanks again for asking.
The person who wrote the above comment under the name “Maurice Pinay” is not the author of http://mauricepinay.blogspot.com/ and http://mauricepinayblog.wordpress.com/ I am.
While I have found some of the information uncovered by the “Krahgate” affair to be noteworthy I do not see that it has been proven that Max Krah is of Judaic ancestry, nor does it matter to me. Krah performs all of the functions of the traditional “Court Jew” for SSPX superior Bishop Fellay and that is what should concern us regardless of his ethnic or genetic background.
I don’t believe that any given race is any more genetically predisposed to evil or good than any other race.
@Ciaran:
“Understanding the true superiority of Christianity to Judaism is the first step back to those things.”
Nice try. If Christianity were actually superior to Judaism it would BE superior to Judaism. Christianity explicitly condemns things like pride, power, and will…the very things that Judaism promotes.
@Maurice Pinay: Thank you. The faux Pinay didn’t sound like the equally but differently pseudonymous you.
I quite agree that what concerns you most about Bishop Fellay and l’affaire SSPX ought to be the prime concern.
Regarding Jews, they’re not a race, they’re a conspiracy, if we are to believe Victor Ostrovsky, who remarked on the willingness of virtually all Jews to help Mossad. I am fairly familiar with the work of Jews connected with that and other Jewish organizations. Absolutely shocking, and ubiquitous. Nobody should exercise moderation when talking about a plague. They’ve got Fellay in their pocket, and Stuyvesant should know it.
Abe Goldstein
September 21, 2011 – 10:09 pm | Permalink
@mari: OK, that makes sense. Don’t any churches still offer it?
I don’t think so. I think the vernacular mass may be one of those things that Catholics, especially the priests in public have to do.
Ever been to Los Angeles? There are Catholic churches that have on the sign board for Sunday Mass 9/Filipino
10/Spanish 11/Korean 12/English.
Might be better if they just had a Latin mass.
For a long time Latin was like English today, an international language. That’s how Europeans and middle easterners could communicate. Latin was not just for the learned. Lots of people learned a rudimentary tourist version.
Lon distance freight and mule drivers learned it. Also sailors, merchants, soldiers, scholars and anybody who either traveled or dealt with travelers.
Trenchant
September 21, 2011 – 2:49 am | Permalink
I was aware of Pope John Paul’s closeness to the Jews, but would have imagined that due diligence would have been performed prior to his nomination.
Having some Jewish grandparents would not have prevented or been considered a bad thing when he became a priest and Pope. He became Pope because he was Polish and Reagan, the Catholic church and the anti communists selected Poland to be the first satellite country liberated from communism.
A good choice by the way.
There is a lot more in the Talmud than just Jesus was a bastard. The Talmud says his Mother was not just a prostitute but a totally lowly prostitute who was so unattracive that her only customers were manual laborerers who were of course suhuman.
Mary could not afford to take care of him, so when he was about 2 she sold him on a 30 year slavery contract to an Egyptian circus. There he learned all sorts of magician’s tricks.
When his slavery term was up he came back to Israel and started his new religion. Gullible people were sucked in because of the magician show he learned while working with the Egyptian circus.
This was written around 30BC. Some of it fits the Christian gospels. Joseph was a carpenter. The miracles could have been magician’s tricks. The loaves and fishes that fed the multitude could have been brought to the location before hand.
The Talmud really loathes and despises Jesus as a sort of heritic and Television Oral Roberts Al Sharpton type of preacher.
The writings in the Talmud lead me to believe that there was a Jew named Jesus who did indeed create Christianity.
The gospels can be dismissed as pro Christian. But when the enemy of the Christians writes many of the same things in the Talmud, he probably ws who the Christian gospels say he was.
Mari, this is key. The Southerners learned a slightly poorer version of this. There were great, HUGE fights in the 1980s over “phonics” vs. “whole word learning.”
This was really a linguistic fight. Blacks couldn’t read like Whites could, so there was this invented “whole word” system that was supposed to “equalize” everyone.
The Southern Dixie Whites retreated to home schools and taught their children to read the “traditional” way, in this case, “phonics” as opposed to the state-imposed “whole word” system.
When you mention “vocabulary, verbs and grammar” it reminds me so much of this fight, the fight to be able to teach our own children our own language, which is the basis of science, logic, and engineering.
There really is a *deliberate* attempt to “dumb down” education for the various diverse White American peoples, the Founding Nation. This must be fought at all costs.
I am sorry to tell you that after Vatican 2 the SSPX was the trap for traditional Catholics. They destroyed a vast movement and channeled the rest into their cult. And now they bring them back into a Church which has thrown away the foundations of the faith valid for more than 1500 years. The work is done now. The Church of Vatican II is in tune with the anthropocentrism of modernity. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis. The SSPX was from the beginning infiltrated by Masons and Gnosticism. And they accept a succession of sacraments as valid which are not valid and which are no sacraments anymore. The streams of Grace have run dry.
@Wolfgang Star:
Wolfgang – I’m sorry but I don’t follow the logic of this post although I enjoyed an earlier post on Belloc:
You are right when you said there that it was protestants who put AH into power. Such was the success of de-Nazification programs in post-War Germany however, that German Catholics (their theologians and bishops) arrived at the Second Vatican Council in 1962 and began to talk and behave as if they HAD voted for AH. The young Ratzinger was drawn to this set of “new theologians” or “nouvelle teologie” and they together with their French counterparts began the wholesale destruction of the Catholic Church. Their logic was simple: WE are to blame for WWII and the holocaust so WE must be doing something wrong. WE have to change! So change things they did.
@buckle: You are being notably polite, buckle. I would say, rather, that what Mr. Star says about the SSPX is a flat-out falsehood.
There is a lot of talk about the Jews, about Protestantism, Gnosticism etc. How they intermingle and contribute in creating the abysm of Modernity at which we are standing now. But there is a strange silence when in comes to the Masons. The same strange silence which befell the postvatican II Church. The same strange silence we find with the SSPX. Caspar von Schrenck-Notzing who protected by his wealth and influence the new Right in Germany was going in and out of the headquarters of SSPX in France. The father of Schrenk-Notzing was one of the highest ranking Masons in Germany. Do you think his son was no Mason? And this is just one of a myriad of examples.This is the secret of the rightwing movement in Germany, in Europe and also in the USA. Without protection from the “Brothers” they would have been squashed by the Left long time ago. So there is no talk that Masonry, like Protestantism and Gnosticism has been created and maintained by jewish input. Luther turned against the Jews only after he felt betrayed by his former Allies. And it is this “controlled” Antisemitism and “Conservatism” which also pervades some Lodges. It is a false superficial attraction which caught the Right at the hook of Modernity.
People who are interested in this subject might want to read th books of Malachi Martin. He was a priest who worked in the Vatican most of his career.
He claims that the Vatican was subverted by communists in the 1970′s.
He was there. he should know.
@mari: Léon de Poncins (1897–1976), a remarkable historian and chronicler of conspiracies, wrote three books on this topic that are notably deeper and better researched than Father Martin’s still pretty good books. They are Judaism and the Vatican: An Attempt at Spiritual Subversion; Freemasonry and Judaism: Secret Powers behind Revolution; and Freemasonry and the Vatican: A Struggle for Recognition. I highly recommend them all.
@Greg Paulson:
“Furthermore, any respect for their anti-Jewish stance is lost when you recognize that their solution to Jewish-Gentile (Christian) relations is to convert them to Catholicism!”
That’s what Jesus tried and at least 11 converted (plus a few more). The 12th attempted a synthesis of both religions for which he needed funding. Catholics do accept that the leader of the first 11 was far from perfect.
@Masculinity:
This is a fair point and the SSPX will struggle to find a structure within the Church where their autonomy is protected. It is true that the post-Vatican II Church has been compromised by the post-war political status quo. Contrary to what atheists and protestants claim, the Catholic Church reflects the contemporary World in which its adherent function (for good or bad). It’s decline since 1965 for example, mirrors the decline of the USA which began apace during the Johnson adminstration. Matching it stride for stride in fact. This is something that non-Catholics refuse to see in the face of overwhelming evidence.
In the early medieval period, Irish ethncocentricty kept the light burning. Indeed, O’Connell’s pursuit of Catholic emancipation in the 1820′s effectively kick-started the replication of this acheivement. In the latter case it was the Irish laity (and not “monastic elites”) who took the faith to the four corners of the globe.
This all came to a crashing halt in 1962 at Vatican II when the Irish failed to function as a unit. A measure, if nothing else, of the benign qualities of their tribe.
The statement issued at the conclusion of the two-week Synod of Bishops conference on Middle East at the Vatican in Sept. 2010 – called for the end to the Jewish occupation of Palestine.
It also said that the biblical concept of the “Promised Land nor the Chosen People” justify the building of new illegal Jewish settlements nor the occupation of the Holy Land.
“We thought carefully about the status of Jerusalem is holy. We are concerned about unilateral initiatives that threaten to change the composition and risk population balance,” the statement said.
“There is no longer a ‘chosen people’,” the statement has claimed. When Greek-Melchite Archbishop Cyrille Salim Bustros was asked to explain the claim in a news conference, he replied: “We Christians cannot speak about the promised land for the Jewish people. There is no longer a chosen people. All men and women of all countries have become the chosen people. The concept of the promised land cannot be used as a base for the justification of the return of Jews to Israel and the displacement of Palestinians. The justification of Israel’s occupation of the land of Palestine cannot be based on sacred scriptures.”
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2010/10/25/vatican-bible-doesnt-promise-palestine-to-jews/
@Rehmat: The Greek-Melchite Rite is one of the eastern rites still affiliated with Rome. Archbishop Cyrille Salim Bustros frequently speaks truth about the Jews when he visits Rome. This causes great consternation among the philo-semitic western prelates. The Palestinian Latin-Rite Patriarch of Jerusalem is also a thorn in the side of the Israelis.
“There is no longer a chosen people.”
One of the most honest statement to be issued by any cleric in Christianity’s entire history. As I’ve said before, believing Christians need to admit that either Jesus established a new covenant and the old covenenat is ended, or he was a fraud and the old covenant is still in force. To claim to be a believer and pretend there are two covenants in effect is intellectual fraud and cowardice.
Have faith brothers! The Church has faced numerous challenges throughout its history. For example, Pope Leo confronting Attila and the Huns (would the Church survive its infancy?); Schism and the relative failure of the Orthodox confronting the challenge of Islam in comparison to the RCC (when are the Orthodox going to admit that it has been rough going for them since they chose to split when prelates decided that they had such a thorough understanding of the interior nature of the Trinity (its a mystery, isn’t it?) that they could call their brothers in the faith heretics for having a different understanding – you would figure that the fall of Constantinople and the Russian Czar (to Jews no less) would chasten them and chase them back to union); Heresies (e.g., the Albigensian gnostic heresy that sought to incorporate new (old) forever recurring heresies that never seem to go away and was accompanied by a desire to “bless” non-proceative sexual activities – the new age and “women’s right to choose” isn’t so new when seen through the prism of church history); Division (A king and a priest who both had problems with the teachings of the church regarding sexual morals go to great lengths to justify their DISOBEDIENCE by questioning the primacy of the Church – just when did the Lord revoke the charter of the RCC settled on Peter and his successors and settle a new charter on the “innovations” begun by Henry VIII and Martin Luther (it is noted that these sects are disappearing because of the never-ending quest by some within these sects to escape traditional Christian sexual morality). Just think, if things are on a worsening trajectory that’s actually a good thing for the faithful remnant – that means the Lord is close to returning! Perhaps we’re not that close, though; just this weekend while attending mass I was reminded that the Church will soon institute more faithful translations in the Novus ordo liturgy (if the translations are faithful just what beef do the traditionalists have with the hierarchy?). How many other 2000 year old institutions can turn on a dime (in the relatively short space of fifty years) and tacitly admit that a big mistake has been made? One other group seems committed to making the same mistakes over and over again no matter how many times they are set on the road and forced to wander the world. Thank God Amighty that we have His promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against Holy Mother Church!
@Wolfgang Star:
The SSPX are just dandy. I’m for any outfit that tells Die Judenraus to take a long walk on a short pier.
@fender:
“Christianity is Judaism,” Rev. John Hagee.
http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/save-a-jew-save-yourself/
@Ciaran:
And isn’t that the real story?
@Masculinity:
Catholicism has always been a universal religious movement that functions under the charge “go ye and make disciples of all nations.” It has never been the charge “go ye and race-mix together all nations.” Nations adopting the same religion does not imply or necessarily lead to intermarriage. This is a fallacy of our socalled movment. What leads to intermarriage is geographic proximity. That condition in America is the consequence of Protestant conquest of American territory, of slavery, and of untrammelled immigration from elsewhere promoted historically by the WASP capitalist elites and since 1964 aggressively so by Jews in addition to the capitalists who still favor it. Its not a Catholic program even if there are a bunch of Catholics now who provide charity to poor immigrants for example. Poor immigrants did not enact laws in Congress.