Another paper has come out similar to the Atzmon work reviewed in my previous TOO paper. Having exhaustively examined Atzmon’s study, and seeing that the new Behar work (“The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people“) essentially says the same thing, I’ll keep the comments brief. I have also written the current TOO article (“Jewish Ethnic Genetic Interests“) as a dialogue on the complex topic of how to think about Jewish ethnic interests. Comments on these articles are welcome.
The Dienekes blog does a good job summarizing the paper, so I’ll highlight the major relevant points.
The PCA analysis, a method I view as somewhat weak but with some utility, again shows Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews as spanning the gulf between European and Middle Eastern populations. Also see here which includes this figure:
Global “admixture” analysis, similar to Atzmon’s Structure data, shows the Ashkenazi as similar to other Jewish populations (and to Cypriots) and roughly midway between Europeans and groups like Palestinians. Another view is here.
The regional “admixture” analysis again shows the intermediate nature of Jewish populations and their greater similarity to Middle/Near Easterners than to Europeans.
The link to the original paper’s abstract is here. Note the large proportion of Jewish authors. Again, these data are essentially produced by Jewish scientists, not by “anti-Semites.”
The authors write:
Most Jewish samples form a remarkably tight subcluster that overlies Druze and Cypriot samples but not samples from other Levantine populations or paired Diaspora host populations.
Therefore, this statement suggests that Jews are not Middle Eastern (“other Levantine populations”) nor European (“paired Diaspora host populations”) but a separate population in between. However, they seem to be basing that statement on the PCA, which is not reliable. However, as the “admixture” analysis yields the same “in between” ancestry profile, the statement itself is probably sound. Note that it mimics Atzmon as well as other previous studies on this topic reviewed here in the past.
The authors also commented thus:
The positioning of the Ashkenazi-Moroccan-Sephardi cluster between contemporary European and Levantine populations is of interest. This intermediate location is not surprising for Ashkenazi Jews, and might intuitively suggest some gene introgression from Central and EastEuropean host populations15. However, the overlapping location of Moroccan and Sephardi Jewish communities should be considered in the context of their historical chronicles. The traditional scenario suggested by historians to explain the establishment of these latter communities is as follows: 1) migration from the Levant to the geographic region corresponding to contemporary Iraq some 2,500 years ago, 2) movement to North Africa during the Arab expansion beginning in the 7th century, 3) movement through Gibraltar to the Iberian Peninsula to merge with and probably overwhelm any small pre-existing Jewish community from the Roman era, 4) expulsion of an estimated greater than one third of the population from the Iberian Peninsula in 1492 (Spain) and 1497 (Portugal) ACE, and 5) re-settlement throughout the then existing North African Jewish communities or establishment of new Jewish communities such as the Turkish and Bulgarian communities under Ottoman rule. Therefore, the clustering of Sephardi and Moroccan Jews is not surprising, but their clustering so tightly with Ashkenazi rather than Middle Eastern (Iran, Iraq) Jews and not with their host populations is surprising. It is also noteworthy that previously reported mtDNA analysis showed that four maternal lineages underwent dramatic expansion as part of the demographic history of Ashkenazi Jews, and these lineages were also found exclusively among Sephardi Jews, but were not present in non-Jewish samples. These results might suggest either shared ancestry prior to the events leading to the generation of these Diaspora communities, or a previously underappreciated level of contact between these communities. An additional scenario might be Central-Eastern European genetic introgression into Ashkenazi Jews and an Iberian-European gene introgression into Sephardi Jews. According to this formulation, a potentially homogeneous European genetic variation would have generated the genetic proximity between the Jewish communities, with the detailed geographic sources within Europe being different.
Note that contra Atzmon, they are looking at the data and speculating about Central/East European admixture. This is a consequence of an over-reliance on PCA which, like Fst, is mindlessly used by populations genetics, over-interpreted, and ends up yielding information of limited usefulness.
What would be better – if it is possible – are “admixture” analyses that could distinguish northwest, southern, central, and eastern European genetic contributions, and then determining how much of each type is present in the Ashkenazim (and Sephardim). Just looking at placement of groups along a couple of principal components of variation, in a manner which is very context dependent on populations used, cannot determine why a population is where it is.
Further, actual gene sharing analyses (e.g., Atzmon’s IBD analysis) is much more relevant to genetic interests than abstract placements on these graphs. Even more to the point, higher order genetic structure is not really being considered in these papers. If it was, I’d suspect greater differentiation between continentally defined groups.
The Atzmon and Behar studies are indeed useful. But they are, in my opinion, flawed by the conformist tendency of population geneticists to use certain metrics as the foundation of their work when these metrics leave much to be desired. Do any of these people using Fst for example ever address Jost’s criticisms?
Ted Sallis (email him) writes on scientific issues.
The Joys of Jihad: Islamentable, Isatrocious, Isbetrayal
Nordics versus Implicit Jews in "The Switch"
When Heidi went to Heaven 
The Jews are a cult with a marriage taboo. Jew cult membership is transmitted by the female—if your mother is a Jew you are a Jew. So a Jew who marries a non-Jew violates the marriage taboo, and breaks the dna chain too.
The question is how strong across the ages has the Jew cult marriage taboo been? Stronger & weaker over the ages depending on the breaking, or the strength of the marriage taboo. Naturally, conversions, bastards, adoptions all play a part too.
The interesting thing to me is how strong the marriage taboo has been. Particularly, when considering the other Jew cult taboos & practices.(like infant/child circumcision using the teeth & lips, animal sacrifice & slaughter, etc.)
Who are the “Orcadians” in this study? People from the Orkney islands?
Political rather then scientific comment, apologies.
I think the two critical points from this article for American politics, and therefore global politics are,
“This means Jewish populations have a very marked degree of genetic interests in other Jewish populations, in contrast to their genetic interests in Europeans.”
“Therefore, it would be in the interests of an unassimilating Diaspora-type minority to oppose majority ethnocentrism and the formation of an ethnic state and, instead, favor a minority rights-focused multicultural model”
There is a conflict between these two impulses which they didn’t foresee. The immigration-genocide of white people and the destruction of western hegemony threatens the survival of Israel. Things as varied as Geert Wilders and H1B visas are both reactions to that dawning realization.
Dienekes thinks the hunter gatherers of stone age Europe died out and were replaced, when I look at Europeans I’m sure he’s wrong but so far the genetic evidence supports replacement by Middle Eastern agriculturists. The moral is – genetic evidence about the origin of populations is difficult to interpret. Looking at Jews I think the introgression scenario is the most likely. Jewish IQ is due to DNA which has been selected – ‘differences that make a difference’- in those selected parts of the genome Jews might be far less like Middle Easterners than in the neutral parts.
Maybe so, but Jews must come to that conclusion by themselves. Even if they thought it was a great idea Jewish leaders would be chary of getting behind any proposal which originated with nationalists.
“So a Jew who marries a non-Jew violates the marriage taboo, and breaks the dna chain too.”
1. Rabbi gets a jewish male to marry a non-jewish female with strong physical characteristics for the host population – two children, one male, one female.
2. Rabbi’s son gets the half-jewish male to marry a jewish female – children 3/4 jewish by blood, technically jewish offspring.
3a. Rabbi’s son gets half-jewish female to marry jewish male – children 3/4 jewish by blood, not technically jewish.
3b. Repeat the process until all offspring are technically jewish again but with some strong physical characteristic genes from the host population.
I read somewhere rabbinical families maintain centuries long genealogy lists to prove racial purity so it wouldn’t be that difficult to do if you were so minded. That way you can maintain maximum racial purity while importing enough host genes to blend in with the host population.
I assume the process has been underway in Japan, Korea, India for the last 20 years or so.
“[...] long term preservation of Jewish EGI requires Jews to drop their historical grudges against the West and to move away from fears of “white goy persecutors” and instead attempt to make a deal with Europeans that would safeguard the existence of both peoples”
To a certain extent, I think that’s what the neocons are all about, but like the proverbial scorpion who can’t help but sting the proverbial frog providing him safe passage across the river, criminal Jewry can’t help but to attack their benefactors. Hence the neocons support open borders; hence they agitate for sacrificial wars for Zionist Jews in Israel; hence they facilitate Statist-Corporatist Goldman Sachs style rip-offs of Americans; hence they facilitate the military-industrial war profiteering complex scam; hence they facilitate authoritarian, Christian-suppressing, White harassing, and State’s rights eroding centralized Big Government.
I view the White nationalists who want the West to identify with the plight of Zionist Jewry as no less a threat than the idiot Christian Zionists and Bushcons who want America to identify with Zionist Jewry — and no less treacherous.
Like the Buschcons, they may believe their Faustian bargain is some kind of means to salvation, but in the end, they will be no less corrupting, idiotic and destructive to America than were George W. and his ilk. After all, they want to get into bed with scorpions.
The intellectual wing of WN is too cute by half. If Jews dropped their hostility to Christian society they wouldn’t be Jews. There’s no one strategy for minorities remain unique. As KM’s own work shows, there’s the Amish strategy of basically leaving everyone else alone, and then there’s the Jewish strategy of terrorizing everyone everywhere all the time. E. Michael Jones calls them revolutionaries for a reason.
Sallis do you think if you repeat a Jewish study long enough it will make it come true? What is the point of all of this? If Jews are genetically different does it makes it OK to eliminate them and if it does, why wouldn’t the reverse be true? If their genetics make them behave like they do, what are you going to do, insert a *nice* gene? The only people who could really want to prove the Jews are genetically different would be the Jews, helps keep the tribe together, don’t you see? It validates their desire to be superior, to set themselves apart a sort of genetic ghetto. And I don’t buy the Jews are more intelligent argument either. That’s just another urban (where the Jews live) myth as well. The only reason there isn’t studies showing they’re as intelligent as the general population is that would be considered antisemitic. The things I’ve noticed about Jews comes from everyday life and that is they tend to be aggressive and verbal but what they say isn’t anymore intelligent then the average Joe.
I think that attempting to convince Jews they are better off not working to displace Europeans (using genetic studies and other arguments) is positive, but it seems like a low probability strategy.
My understanding is that Jews share about 1/3 ancestry with Europeans, with the remaining 2/3 primarily Middle-eastern. This is a fairly low level of inter-relatedness, Im not sure a good argument could be made that if all Europeans were eliminated from the earth, it would harm the genetic interests of Jews, as we are their “cousins”. After all, the Palestinians should be related to Jews (I understand its hard to distinguish the 2 in genetic tests) much more closely than say, Germans but I am sure Jewry would celebrate wildly if all Palestinians mysteriously evaporated from the earth in the next few minutes. When Jews ask whether European survival is “good for the Jews”, the argument is only convincing based on tangible, concrete benefits for Jewry that significantly outweigh the negatives.
I think its important to realize that the hatred and loathing toward Europeans generally comes from an instinctive, emotional and impulsive part of the Jewish mind. Every ethnic group naturally fears the “other”, just like we naturally fear the sight of bears in the wild, and wish to exterminate them when they roam freely in our territory. They hyper-ethnocentric Jewish brain, in conjunction with an anti-European upbringing, instinctively sees an enemy in Europeans. Attempting to appeal to rational arguments (especially abstract ones such as genetic interests) is perhaps like attempting to persuade a committed ideologue toward a different opinion in politics (its usually very hard, as their beliefs are deeply layered in emotion and non-rational thinking).
For the Jewish community of 1965, which was largely unassimilated, and facing an America that was 90% European, it made perfect sense to overthrow that ethnic hegemony. From the standpoint of a Jew, that White, Christian culture was about as fun to live in as it would be for you to live in hard-core muslim Saudi Arabia (no fun at all, an alien society). Of course, more than that was the ever-present possibility that the Europeans might turn on Jewry, as they rose to an elite and perpetrated their usual shenanigans.
At present, for committed Jewry, Europeans are still much too large a group. The loathed White red-staters are ever a thorn and a threat, with the potential (at 60+% of the population) to institute White rule, and initiate the pogroms and/or worse anti-Semitic reactions. While the chance of this seems small in your mind, it is a very real, urgent concern in the mind of organized Jewry.
Organized Jewry in the US probably currently sees the assimilation and intermarriage of their brethren into the goyish population as a great tragedy, but still not any real reason to support White survival. Just because your cousin marries one of the beast-men, it does not follow that you would suddenly want to ally yourself with the beast-men, who have ever brutalized your kind throughout the ages.
However, while this is probably the general view of US Jewry at present, this does not mean that this won’t change in the future, when minorities have the political power to redistribute wealth etc. Organized Jewry may then reconsider what is “good for the jews”.
Helvena,
“What is the point of all of this?”
It’s interesting.
The Jews genetic proximity to the Cypriots is interesting.
I’m trying to recall which ancient historians claimed that Cyprus may have been the origin of the Jews?
“My understanding is that Jews share about 1/3 ancestry with Europeans, with the remaining 2/3 primarily Middle-eastern. This is a fairly low level of inter-relatedness, Im not sure a good argument could be made that if all Europeans were eliminated from the earth, it would harm the genetic interests of Jews…”
Andrew,
It would depend entirely on who took our place.
If a European is replaced by a Chinese, then other things being equal it is harmful for the genetic interests of Jews.
A Jew shares more Polymorphisms with an European than with a Chinese, a Jew shares more Polymorphism combinations with a European than with a Chinese, etc.
No matter how you measure EGI, other things being equal the replacement of a European by a Chinese is harmful to the EGI of Jews.
And this applies to any Non-Caucasian group, not just the Chinese.
“After all, the Palestinians should be related to Jews (I understand its hard to distinguish the 2 in genetic tests) much more closely than say, Germans but I am sure Jewry would celebrate wildly if all Palestinians mysteriously evaporated from the earth in the next few minutes.”
Yeah, that sounds like something they would do.
But from the standpoint of EGI such a situation is not at all analogous to Europeans disappearing due to the fact that the mysteriously vanished Palestinians would either have their space taken up by Jews, or by groups such as the Lebanese who aren’t significantly less related to Jews than Palestinians are.
“When Jews ask whether European survival is ‘good for the Jews‘, the argument is only convincing based on tangible, concrete benefits for Jewry that significantly outweigh the negatives.”
Because the Jews believe in or were otherwise deeply impacted by a nonsense religion which tells them that they, and only they, are “God’s chosen people”.
Otherwise they wouldn’t be so extreme in their lack of concern for other Caucasian groups.
“However, while this is probably the general view of US Jewry at present, this does not mean that this won’t change in the future, when minorities have the political power to redistribute wealth etc. Organized Jewry may then reconsider what is ‘good for the jews‘.”
The central issue is Israel. Because of birthrate and intermarriage differentials a hugely disproportionate share of Jewish genetic interests are tied up in Israel.
Wandrin, the Torah is interesting too, but it’s fiction, written by the same people and more than likely for the same purpose.
Here we are again – not European not Middle Eastern as if there were no other people’s in Europe with Middle Eastern signatures, and no European signatures in the Middle East.
What a bunch of nonsense. Jews are as “intermediary” a group as the entire Southern European flank.
AngryJew: “Jews are as “intermediary” a group as the entire Southern European flank.”
Yeah, and organized Jewry is about as respectable as the Sicilian mafia. Only it robes itself in self-righteousness and false morality, declares itself “the Chosen,” and low IQ idiots of Left and Right fall all over themselves kissing its rings. Meanwhile, its fellow gangsters join it in robbing the country blind, all under the veneer of respectability.
When God wants to test a civilization, he must send it Jewry to see if it rejects them or not. If it doesn’t, it’s finished.
“When God wants to test a civilization, he must send it Jewry to see if it rejects them or not. If it doesn’t, it’s finished.”
Brilliant.
Merca is failing that test. Merca is dead. Long live Merca!
@Reginald,
I see your point, and strictly speaking, you are correct, if Europeans (with at least some recent common ancestry with Jews) are replaced by Chinese (with almost no recent common ancestry with Jews), this would technically harm Jewish EGI.
I guess my point is though that while technically true, I dont think the argument would be very persuasive when attempting to persuade Jews against working to displace Europeans.
I imagine that US Blacks have on average 25% European ancestry, while Japanese have much less than that. Thus an argument could be made that it is in the genetic interests of Whites to support US Blacks over Japanese. But personally, I would not find such an argument convincing. Regardless of what amount of genes blacks share with Europeans, they are (in my honest opinion) grossly inferior genetically to the Japanese. If those 2 peoples were in conflict where only one could survive, I would completely root for the Japanese. At least for me, when talking about a low level of inter-relatedness (less than half common ancestry), EGI is not a very convincing reason to support a different ethnic group. My guess is that organized Jewry would feel the same way.
“Here we are again – not European not Middle Eastern”
Sucks to be a mischling, eh?
“When God wants to test a civilization, he must send it Jewry to see if it rejects them or not.”
So THAT’s what the Jews were chosen for!
Andrew,
“I guess my point is though that while technically true, I dont think the argument would be very persuasive when attempting to persuade Jews against working to displace Europeans.”
I think jews are working against their own long-term interests but they can’t see it because they hate (or fear) white people too much. I think a side effect of their way of being for the last 2000 years has been a level of paranoia which may have been beneficial in earlier centuries but is maladaptive now.
Wandrin: “they hate (or fear) white people too much”
Their behavior is hostile to the White race, but I don’t suppose they are hostile to the individual Whites they live with. The Jews are the specialists of hate: they write books about ‘hate’, and they say they can read ‘hate’ in people’s minds. If we were like them, we would reply that they are the real haters. But we are not like them, and we have to admit that we don’t know what’s really going on in their heads!
“What a bunch of nonsense. Jews are as “intermediary” a group as the entire Southern European flank.”
No. Looking at the data, particularly all the “structure” type data, it is clear that Jews are *different” from the “southern European flank.” That’s clear from figures such as this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TA_8jYWZQRI/AAAAAAAACcc/3quI0JWu2ls/s1600/admixture-caucasoid.jpg
“I imagine that US Blacks have on average 25% European ancestry, while Japanese have much less than that. Thus an argument could be made that it is in the genetic interests of Whites to support US Blacks over Japanese”
Err, since unmixed sub-Saharan Africans are more distant from whites than are Japanese, it’s likely that even admixed African-Americans are farther from whites than are Japanese.
But, both groups are very distant. At this point, one may as well consider more proximate reasons (e.g., IQ and behavior) to favor one group from another rather than kinship, since from a kinship perspective you’re losing either way.
“Yeah, and organized Jewry is about as respectable as the Sicilian mafia. Only it robes itself in self-righteousness and false morality, declares itself “the Chosen,” and low IQ idiots of Left and Right fall all over themselves kissing its rings. Meanwhile, its fellow gangsters join it in robbing the country blind, all under the veneer of respectability.
When God wants to test a civilization, he must send it Jewry to see if it rejects them or not. If it doesn’t, it’s finished.”
LOL. That’s seriously funny. :)
Tom said: “LOL. That’s seriously funny.”
Not only funny, but embarrassingly true! Chris Moore is impressing the heck outta me with his penetrating intelligence, post after post.
AJ, on the other hand, continues to reinforce my learned prejudices by acting to type. He’s a caricature, and I’m beginning to suspect he’s a construct designed to discredit Jews.
Tom said: “LOL. That’s seriously funny.”
Not only funny, but embarrassingly true! Chris Moore is impressing the heck outta me with his penetrating intelligence, post after post!
AJ, on the other hand, continues to reinforce my learned prejudices by reacting to type. He’s a caricature, and I’m beginning to suspect he’s a construct designed by the enemies of Judaism to discredit Jews. Who else would act so ignorantly belligerent on a site like this one other than a made-up sociopath?
Er…
Tom said: “LOL. That’s seriously funny.”
Not only funny, but embarrassingly true! Chris Moore is impressing the heck outta me with his penetrating intelligence, post after post!
AJ, on the other hand, continues to reinforce my learned prejudices by reacting to type. He’s a caricature, and I’m beginning to suspect he’s a construct designed by the enemies of Judaism to discredit Jews. Who else would act so ignorantly belligerent on a site like this one other than a made-up sociopath?
I apologize for the double post. My computer didn’t “refresh” fast enough and I grew impatient enough to repost! heh heh
Thanks everybody for the discussion.
Here is a great Revilo Oliver quote:
“The Jews, whose racial cohesion has made them a super-organism, are undoubtedly a superior species. Beginning as a wretched gang of marauders, they, in only 2500 years, scattered throughout the world while retaining with undeviating concentration the super-organic unity of their purpose, and achieved virtual mastery of the globe. That you may disapprove of their methods or their character is irrelevant. They have given proof of biological superiority. One wonders whether that superiority will enable them to consummate their total triumph or whether the super-organism is too inflexible, its instincts too fixed and rigid to cope with an entirely novel situation, so that the multiplex organism will perish in the chaos it has created, exulting, perhaps, in the total destruction in which it will also be destroyed.” — Revilo Oliver, 1981
arthurdecco, thanks for the compliment — in triplicate, even!