Kevin MacDonald: Gil Atzmon and colleagues have come out with the largest study yet comparing Jewish and non-Jewish populations. (See here and here.) Ted Sallis will be coming out with a longer summary for TOO, but I thought I would highlight a couple points.
The study is remarkable for the number of genetic loci studied (3904 SNPs) and the number of people sampled (273 Jews from 7 different Jewish groups (Ashkenazi, Iranian, Syrian, Iraqi, Italian; Greek; Turkish) and 418 people from 16 non-Jewish groups). As in previous studies, the main message is that Jewish populations do cluster together and are different from the populations they have lived among for hundreds of years. The 7 Jewish populations divided into a European/Syrian group with a relatively high degree of genetic admixture with European non-Jews (30-60%) and a Middle Eastern group (Iraqi and Iranian Jews). The estimate of 60% overlap between Ashkenazi populations and Europeans indicates that Ashkenazi Jews are an intermediary population with genetic interests that overlap significantly with Europeans.
The new findings were seen as support for the idea that there was significant admixture with non-Jews in Greco-Roman times. This is based on the clustering of the European/Syrian Jews and the fact that these groups have been separated since ancient times. The authors argue that the data are consistent with historical accounts of proselytism and large-scale conversions to Judaism in ancient times. When I reviewed the historical data in A People That Shall Dwell Alone (Ch. 4, pp. 62-78), I ended up rejecting this theory, coming down on the side of historians who doubted how important conversion really was. One thing that convinced me was that there was a lot of evidence for biases against converts. For example, once they converted they were regarded as very undesirable marriage partners and that a pure Jewish genealogy was a very big asset in the marriage market. Families keep their genealogies for generations, and there is a lot of evidence for hostility toward converts. Contrary to Atzmon et al., conversion is not required to explain the large numbers of Jews in the ancient world.
There was also a very pronounced apologetic tone to Jewish advocates of high levels of prosetlytism. But now it looks like they may have been right because the greatest admixture among the European/Syrian groups comes from the Mediterranean area: French, Northern Italian, and Sardinians. It’s hard to see how that could have happened without the admixture occurring in the ancient world. It’s also worth noting that, once again, the data are not compatible with a major role for the Khazars.
In any case, there certainly were elaborate cultural barriers against intermarriage throughout very long stretches of Jewish history, resulting in genetically different populations with substantially different genetic interests. That’s the point of the group evolutionary strategy idea: Admixture would have been much higher without barriers.
And of course, genetic overlap is not the same thing as a psychological sense of common interest. Following John Murray Cuddihy, I have often stressed the hostility and sense of historical grievance that Jews have had toward the Europeans they have lived among for centuries. Psychological attitudes do not necessarily match up one-to-one with genetic distance. Attitudes are affected not only by genetic similarity but are at least partly affected by ingroup/outgroup psychology which is known to be fairly insensitive to genetic distance: People can develop great hatreds toward the fans of different football teams.
The point is that it’s quite possible that Jewish hostility toward Europeans and their culture is not really warranted by the recent findings on genetic distance–an intriguing possibility to say the least.
Facing the Future as a Minority
I’ve noticed that the non-Jewish spouses of Jews in mixed marriages take up the sense of historical grievance with great alacrity. They also become committed Zionists. The bunker mentality is very contagious once one sees himself as part of the club.
Should these Jew-conducted studies be taken at face value, or might they be rigged in the interests of ethnic activism, per the Culture of Critique? At least since Arthur Koestler, they’ve been flinging around two versions of their story: one is an attempt to rationalize the brutal theft and occupation of Palestine, and the other is an attempt to exonerate the diaspora for the brutal theft and occupation of Palestine (among other instances of Jewish evil).
Suports my contention that the Jews are an ancient Mediterranean temple cult with a marriage taboo.
It does raise the question of how strong the marriage taboo was in ancient times? Roughly the years between 500 BC, and First century AD which seems to be the time span that saw the expansion of the cult of the Jews around the Mediterranean.
It also makes a case for Christ’s impact on the Jews—did the Jews become more cultish, and turn inward after Christ? That’s what I would think, and history also seems to support.
Steve Sailer has a blog post about this study. To me, the most interesting conclusion was that the population of Ashkenazi Jews dropped down to a low of 50,000 during the Late Middle Ages due to disease and persecution. A date isn’t given, but I assume that they are refering to a point in time right after the black death (1350?) If they really numbered only 50,000 in 1350, their subsequent genetic success is astounding. 1350 was about the time the Ashkenazi started moving out of ethnically homogeneous Germany into the Eastern European areas where the great multi-ethnic empires (Polish/Lithuanian, Hapsburg, and Ottoman) were emerging, in the process helping the East European nobility degrade their free peasants into serfs.
Have either the genetic researchers or Kevin MacDonald done any studies comparing and contrasting Karaite and Rabbinical Jews? Some historians claim that the Karaites constituted 40% of the world’s Jewish population 1000 years ago. Currently, they are a miniscule minority. Is this because of mass conversions to Rabbinical Judaism, or is it due to lack of genetic success? If their decline is due to lack of genetic success, the Karaites are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the Ashkenazi in this regard. They are also at opposite end of the spectrum in their willingness to create new sources of belief: The Karaites consider the Tanak alone to be authoritative. The Ashkenazi, on the other hand, accept the Tanak and the Talmud (as do all Rabbinical Jews), the Zohar (as do all Rabbinical Jews other than the Yemeni Dor Daim) – the Ashkenazi Hasidics are more enthusiastic in their acceptance of the Zohar than any other Jews, and Ashkenazi Reform Jews incorporate all sorts of post-Enlightenment ideologies into Judaism. The Karaites also seem to be at the opposite end of the spectrum from the Ashkenazi in terms of hostility to people of European ancestry (no porn moguls, gangsters, revolutionaries, swindlers, propagandists or organ traffickers that I know of).
Are the Karaites also at the extreme opposite end of the spectrum from the Ashkenazi in terms of gentic mixture with European people?
Another recent blog post by Steve Sailer may also be of interest to TOO readers. The social “sciences” in Norway are in an especially sorry condition. Norway is a formerly Protestant, now secular, country with very few Jews. Is this proof that Gottfried’s analysis of Western decadence is more valid than MacDonald’s?
One thing to keep in mind is that genetic distance determined using nearly neutral sites doesn’t say much about phenotypic distance in general. From simple observation, I can pretty easily tell a Jew from a non-Jew. Who knows how many alleles are sufficient to create the bulk of the unique Jewish physical/psychological phenotype. It could be relatively few of the (say) 30 million genetic variants in Homo sapiens.
Interesting and open-minded article. It will be interesting to see how this finding, and especially the question asked in the final paragraph, will affect the myths of genetic interest and group evolutionary strategy among white nationalists. (By “myth” I’m not suggesting that the science is incorrect; these topics are one thing as science, another thing as Sorelian political myth.)
Re Whites Unite: I had the same reaction when I read Sailer’s article on Norway. But is it really news that Scandinavian countries with very few Jews are even more anti-tradition and “anti-white” than countries that are supposedly controlled by the Jews? I’ve read the exchange between MacDonald and Gottfried. I don’t think the post by Sailer adds anything new to it.
And of course, genetic overlap is not the same thing as a psychological sense of common interest.
“Of course”? Professor, I don’t know how you can say that with a straight face; your minions are sure to beg to differ. Seems like a straight path to “genetic cuckoldry” from where I stand, and we all know what a huge no-no that is.
In any case, there certainly were elaborate cultural barriers against intermarriage throughout very long stretches of Jewish history, resulting in genetically different populations with substantially different genetic interests.
Weird stuff, this “genetic interests” thing. I admit I can’t really get my head around it. Does this statement refer to genetically different groups of Jews (today), who have substantially different genetic interests from each other (casting into doubt their common identity as “Jews”*), or to Jews as a whole, who are now genetically different to their predecessors (from, say, 2000, 1500 or 1000 years ago), which puts into question the alleged necessity of defending “genetic interests” per se. (See Anthony Hilton’s letter to his genes.) I mean, if they were ethnically “Jews” then and they are still ethnically “Jews” now, what’s the big deal genetically?
*Which is my usual retort to those who insist on portraying Israel as some homogeneous, co-operative, National Socialist wonderland.
Finrod,
I’ve noticed that the non-Jewish spouses of Jews in mixed marriages take up the sense of historical grievance with great alacrity.
And then you have ‘tanstaafl,’ whose Jewish spouse hasn’t been an impediment at all to his aggressive “counter-semitism.” In other words, just what you’d expect. Some people come to identify more with their spouses’ backgrounds than with their own, other people don’t. There’s nothing eerily semitic about this phenomenon.
HA,
At least since Arthur Koestler, they’ve been flinging around two versions of their story: one is an attempt to rationalize the brutal theft and occupation of Palestine,
That’s just a response to your contention that Jews have no place in Palestine because they’re not genetically the same people. I don’t put much stock in these arguments. If Zoroastrians survived in substantial numbers and were genetically altered over the generations and then carved out a “homeland” somewhere on the Persian Plateau it’s extremely doubtful that the same people who belly-ache about Jews and Israel would have ever uttered a peep about it.
“But is it really news that Scandinavian countries with very few Jews are even more anti-tradition and “anti-white” than countries that are supposedly controlled by the Jews?”
Or, maybe it’s because Norway has few Jews that this astonishing documentary, “Brainwashed,” got made there. First crack in the dam?
First, the Scandinavian countries constitute an ethno-cultural entity. Both Sweden and Denmark have had influential Jewish diasporas, and even Jews in Norway have held influential key positions of power. Second, post-WW2 Europe/Scandinavia are part of the American cultural space. Events and developments taking place in the center of gravity (the US) affect the periphery.
Most of the movements discussed in CoC have had a tremendous influence here. Since reading the Culture of Critique I’ve always thought that book needed a translation into the Norwegian. Perhaps the Marxists and multiculturalists would wake up and realize they haven’t become post-racial, instead they’re now just serving the interests of _another_ ethnic group.
@ Finrod
Right, Fin. Genetics can’t explain it all. There is some psychology too. LOL.
Btw, that 50,000 number sounds really low, even considering the black plague, and the pre-Crusade putting of the Jews of Europe on notice not to start any problems while the Christian leadership was away on the Crusade.
Jews in leadership positions have expressed the view that,: “The difference between a Jewish soul and the souls of non-Jews — all of them in all different levels — is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.”
Thus the rationale for ghettos and claims of being a chosen people as well as the dedication to defining the role/characteristics of others as weird or anti-jewish and therefore psychotic.
Some years back while traveling through Switzerland read in several publications that the Nazi party in Germany was initially proposed by several German Jewish authors as a means to replicate the Communist Russian Jews actions in the communist revolution.[ that is get to be in charge ]
A few European authors have even made the allegation that the so called “Old Testament was actually written “after” in order to validate the so-called “New Testament”. The justification being that if it were the way it has been accepted, then what ever the “gypsy” fortune teller tells her clients should be accepted in the manner the old and new testaments are.
From my reading of APTSDA, I gather that David Sloan Wilson’s work provides the primary theoretical foundation for the book. Consistent with Wilson’s theory of multilevel selection and organization, the Jewish community can be understood as an organism in its own right, and — as is the case for most organisms — it pursues its survival without performing any calculus of the effects of this survival on lower-level structures.
I suppose there is some tension between this fact and GST, but it remains useful to think in terms of “genetic structures” instead of genes. The Jewish community is an elaborate and enormous genetic structure that has an interest per se, just as genes and other sub- and super-genetic genetic structures do. One of the major themes of APTSDA is that the perpetual conflict between the interests of the group genetic structure and those of lower-level genetic structures is regularly resolved in favor of the group. This is, in fact, what Jewish monotheism means.
The pursuit of genetic homogeneity (or “purity”) is one strategy for minimizing intragroup conflict, to be sure, but mutation is not always harmful or, more to the point, deadly. By its own reckoning, the Jewish people is now 5770 years old regardless of the extent to which there has been a genetic influx over that time.
Every where Jewish people go, they build walls between themselves and others. Hence I expected “uniqueness”.
One major trait of a Psychopath:
Callous/lack of empathy(from wiki)
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l197/JJJjjjpua/Palestinianwoman.jpg
Picture: Laughing at an Arab mother carrying the last few things from a house she is forcefully displaced from.
What I don’t understand is how these people find each other. The French president was from a family of secret Jews masquerading as Catholics, yet he ends up with a woman just like his background and very good at keeping secrets. Do they have some sort of underground matchmakers for these sorts of people, or just the same families marrying each other’s cousins?
Yes, nearly neutral sites are the vast majority, where the differences don’t make a difference in reproductively isolated populations they have just drifted apart.
Where the Jews really differ is not in appearance but at parts of the genome where the DNA has selective value for increased fitness. The bulk of European admixture took place before much of the selection took place so the European DNA has been subjected to intensive selection for fitness in a Jewish occupational context; at the parts of the genome which have selective value much of the European DNA has been winnowed out leaving a lot of neutral DNA .
“It will be interesting to see how this finding, and especially the question asked in the final paragraph, will affect the myths of genetic interest and group evolutionary strategy among white nationalists.”
jewish ethnic activism aimed at the immigration-genocide of white people is incontrovertible. Only the reason for it is under debate.
is it ok to blame one’s “antisemitism” on some sort of genetic recoil?
on the intellectual level, i may realize that jews are the world’s finest ethnic grouping, their army the most moral, light unto the nations and all but what the hell, i still don’t like them for some obscure reason and what’s the best, i don’t have to.
i will sleep easy tonight.
And then you have ‘tanstaafl,’ whose Jewish spouse hasn’t been an impediment at all to his aggressive “counter-semitism.
Silver talks about me like he knows me. He doesn’t.
A Personal Disclosure.
Finrod’s point is perfectly valid. If my wife actually had two jewish parents or been raised as a jew she would certainly be more of an “impediment”. Before I learned what I know now about jews I had indeed taken on a sense of historical jewish grievance, albeit in weakened form. But now my wife knows what I know, and together our sense of White grievance prevails. Jews are the aggressors. They aren’t threatened under the current regime. Whites are.
Silver calls me aggressive. I think reactionary is more accurate. I can even provide an example involving Silver. I wrote how to be HAPPY, dammit to capture and share my reaction to one of the hundreds of little learning experiences I’ve had concerning jews. Silver, writing as Anonymous 2/23/2009 07:06:00 AM, pounced to pathologize me as “a shell of a man” “delirious with jew-hatred”. (Silver came almost 3 weeks later to take credit for the anonymous comment.)
Suffice to say that for whatever reason this unpleasant anti-White lurker/activist has a hard on for me.
Tanstaafl says:
Suffice to say that for whatever reason this unpleasant anti-White lurker/activist has a hard on for me.
That’s obvious. That’s why we ignore his boring posts filled with inane, circular logic.
Lately,I have been musing about the fact that Jews tend to destroy every area they come to dominate .Take law for example. The USA used to have a pretty fair legal system based on English common law which functioned well. Now it appears that your society has seized up because people are too scared to do things in case they are sued.
Capitalism and free markets have been destroyed because the Federal Reserve and Banks manipulate information and property rights are no longer respected.
Unversities and Academics used to be respected as dispassionate seekers of truth. Now they are instruments for brainwashing. Even in the Sciences where Jews are supposed to be so good they have given us scams such as manmade Global warming( Michael Mann and Gavin Schmidt) Now that the USA has become dominated by this group, I fear for your future and that of the world. Do you think this reverse Midas touch,as it were is genetic, cultural or some kind of curse?
Silver has a checkered past on various “white” websites. Perhaps the most notable is constantly harassing and chasing off Ted Sallis (Earlier known as “JWH”) Majority Rights and getting him to shut down his blog, along with various sockpuppets and use of international proxies to conceal his identity. Certainly not a positive, civil contribution by any means.
Helen Thomas’s dna can’t be that much different than the Jew’s dna—but—the results are different.
http://dailyradar.com/beltwayblips/video/helen-thomas-mocks-gibbs-over-white-house-s-lack-of/
I sympathize with Jews and gentiles whose spouses are Jewish that understand the issues of today. And if they truly understand then they should accept that leadership roles can not and should not be trusted to them. I would sight as an example Disrael, who thought himself a fine upstanding Brit but who helped the Zionist into Palestine. It is with prescient that I hold suspicion.
people that shall dwell alone should be left alone, it suits both sides equally well.
boycott jews and let them wallow in the malnourishment of their disease riddled genetic pool until inbreeding and inability to survive without host takes care of them.
printing judenfrei money is one step in the right direction.
Right you are Lobro my friend. Judenfrei money makes a lot of cents (pun intended)
i have another idea, helvena.
take all the hype about israel, a land for the jews, its hyper-racist, exclusionary, anti-assimilationist, discriminatory laws and replace every mention of “JEW/ISH” by “GENTILE”.
you got the constitution of a new country, aryana, just for gentiles, where jews are used for spittoons.
it should be about 75-80 times the area of israel (20,770 sq.km).
it so happens that iran stands for “aryan” in farsi (an aryan language) and its surface area is 1,648,200 sq.km., which works out to about 80 times the size of israel.
it would be lovely to hear jews howl antisemitism, fascism, intolerance, racism …
where is iranian immigration office, my bag is packed.
Silver is living testament to why wogs are often referred to as “greasy”. But he peddles his wares with such oily panache one cannot help but love Silverino, the Silvster, greatest (and by that I mean greasiest) of all wogs.
@ Lobro, nice thought experiment. I have no problem whatsoever with the Iranians, a people who have a long and rich culture and Aryan is a perfect word for them. When I use the term *white* I use it in the sense it has in the States which is people of European descent. I would be more accurate if I used European instead of white because I think any definition of a people (s) must include their general world view.
There are a few reasons that I don’t buy into these studies. One reason is they are always undertaken by a bunch of jews. Also, where did the Khazars go? It is an undisputed fact that judaism became their state religion. Khazaria also included the exact area where the Askenazis were heavily concentrated before ww2, namely Poland and Russia. So what, this big population of caucasian jews disappeared, only to be replaced by people who are supposed to have migrated from the middle east, but who are caucasian in appearance?
gentiles, which in my loose interpretation means “people” have one unifying characteristic which sets them apart from unpeople and that is conscience, in individually varying doses.
or you might substitute a term like justice, sort of divine footprint in human psyche/alma.
unpeople have none of that, like an essential fragment of the genetic code snipped out from the big sequence.
like body snatchers, they look like people, walk and talk like people until the subject veers close to those ideals and they are completely stumped, what comes spilling out is the black sludge of the satanic filler used to plug that hole.
hence kol nidre and all it entails, and it is a big bundle, the matrix that generates most of their activity.
other folks can talk about everything else but i cannot help monitoring this activity and losing faith that they can ever be redeemed.
That is a powerful post; Lobro Perhaps that is all it is non-gentiles have no conscience;they are all sociopaths. It explains everything. I coudn’t understand how someone like Krauthammer could call Geert Wilders a fascist one day and defend the IDF boarding the flotilla the next. People with a conscience find it impossible to deal with people without. That is why we needed ghettos.
Tanstaafl, stick to the topic. 95% of people who have ever contributed a racialist opinion would find some aspect of it they’d take back and I’m no different. So that’s hardly a mark against my name.
Now, the topic is the double-standards and sham logic you shamelessly abide by. The sham logic speaks for itself: if a Jew does something he only did it because he’s Jewish. That Jewish lady who authored that book on money you discovered in your library is perfectly in line with the great majority of pop psychology thought on the subject but for you, oh, of course, she’s Jewish, whaddya expect? Same thing goes with capitalism, communism, libertarianism and every other -ism you can think of that a Jew has played some role in; they only do it cos they’re filthy Jews.
The double-standard is you railing against Jews while attempting to introduce Jewish genes into the gene pool you presumably wish to preserve. But the problem is the only significant difference between your children and someone like Phoenix’s mayor is when in history the mixing took place. Phoenix mayor no good because he’s part Jewish; your kids fine, despite being part Jewish. Gotcha. Of course, it goes without saying that the vast majority of normal people couldn’t give a hoot about such trivial differences, but we’re talking about hardcore racialists and, well, let’s not sugarcoat it, die-hard Nazis here, who are anything but normal people.
Lastly, it’s not about having a “hard on” for you, personally. I’m not remotely interested in your life. It’s the ideology you propound and the audience it attracts that has my attention. It’s grotesque and in your calmer moments you’d probably admit that to yourself if it wasn’t for this ‘tough guy’ pose you strive to maintain — ie when you want someone’s opinion you’ll give it to them. Get off your high horse, feller.
Oh, and stop playing dumb. Answer the question: what could Jews ever have done any differently in American history that they might have escaped your wrath? Remember, when the Stoddards and the Grants and the Davenports and the Loughlins were railing about Jews it wasn’t on the basis of anything Jews had done; it was on the basis of what Jews were (non-nordic). Obviously their response, in effect, that “hey, come on, race isn’t all that important” was an unpardonable sin, but what might have they done instead? Now, if you can’t answer that, then you can’t blame me for considering you thoroughly and incorrigibly disingenuous when you claim that it’s only Jewish activity in recent times that has angered you.
Silver is living testament to why wogs are often referred to as “greasy”. But he peddles his wares with such oily panache one cannot help but love Silverino, the Silvster, greatest (and by that I mean greasiest) of all wogs.
The thing is, capster, I’m not the disingenuous one here. You and I are in agreement that there’s quite the chasm between nordish and medish (regardless of how one defines them). Our disagreement lies in that you consider it necessary to obfuscate and, in plain language, lie about the nature of the differences and conceal the nature of your political objectives; I’d rather be open about both. (The underlying difference I think is that you are driven by animosity and desire to hurt people whereas I’m driven by pragmatism and a desire to help people. I’m sure that comparison will get you huffing, but, seriously, in what way isn’t it demonstrably true?)
dorothea, one minuscule and contrarian aspect that gives rise to a glimmer of hope for the unpeople tribe: they have well developed concept of revenge, they are as grudge nursing and vindictive as can be, all their holidays and feasts are built on this organizing principle, because satan demands hate, fertilized by grudges, real or imagined, contemporary or ancient – irrelevant.
but, in order to experience vindictiveness, they must have a vaguest notion of justice, namely, “goys done us wrong” and justice cannot live without truth, thus the devilish program that runs them must allow for these particles to survive in their most rudimentary form.
some jews do indeed manage to miraculously thrive and escape, such as mordechai vanunu, whom the rabbinical fatwa condemned to be boiled alive in a vat of sanhedrin excrement alongside jesus, another truth freak.
Severus,
The Norwegians are not proving very viable in this battle (they even have animal bordellos now, a new low). In fact, I think the Eastern European Folks are proving the most viable, in spite of the presence of both Purebloods AND Christianity.
The Norwegians pioneer animal bordellos and the Swedes pioneered sex change operations precisely BECAUSE they had lost Christianity more thoroughly than any other group of whites. Eastern Europeans would likely descend to the same level of decadence if they lost the faith. The only hope for Scandinavia is a restoration of that Christian culture which first brought them to civilization.