Guernica, Picasso's 1937 work inspired by the Spanish Civil War. Picasso supported the leftist government
It has been 75 years since the outbreak of the Spanish Civil War. Few conflicts in history have been as widely misunderstood, or misrepresented. The standard narrative has long been that of a military coup against a democratic government and the noble Spanish people, supported by foreign idealists, heroically fighting evil “fascists.” This is a grotesque distortion of the truth, and stands as one of the most flagrant examples of how propaganda has been uncritically accepted as official history.
First, it must be emphasized that the Leftist Spanish regime at the time of the nationalist revolt was by no means a coalition of mildly progressive liberals and socialists as it is usually described, but was, in fact, a reign of Communist and anarchist terror. Secondly, less than half of the Spanish military rebelled. The government forces were also at least as well equipped as the nationalist rebels, and they had greater economic resources at their disposal.
These distortions have also been evident in other recent accounts of counterrevolutionary efforts. Since mainstream Western historiography has been confined to more or less Marxist interpretations for over half a century, few today are aware of the many popular uprisings that occurred after 1789 against the Revolution, in defense of Faith and homeland, from the Vendée in 1793, to Hungary in 1956.
As opposed to the famous liberal and socialist “revolutions,” many of which have, in reality, been internationally organized coups, ordered and paid for by international finance, these counterrevolutionary uprisings have almost always been at a hopeless disadvantage, and as a result ended in tragic defeat, and have thus been rendered obscure.
The Spanish Civil War is the one great exception. It is the only major conflict in the modern history of Europe that nationalist, counterrevolutionary forces won.
Like most other Catholic countries after the French Revolution, Spain had been plagued not only by wars, but by capitalist centralization, industrialization, and Masonic persecution of the Church, resulting in the proletarization of large segments of the population. The country’s national pride had just about recovered from the loss of nearly all of its South American colonies in the early nineteenth century when, in 1898, Spain lost Cuba and the Philippines to the United States in humiliating fashion.
Spain managed to stay out of the First World War, but was increasingly affected by internal conflicts and the general turmoil of the time. After an embarrassing military defeat in Morocco, a group of generals led by Miguel Primo de Rivera carried out a coup d’état in 1921. His dictatorship was a time of relative stability in which no political opponents were executed. After seven years he handed over power to the King, Alfonso XIII. This monarch was kind, but weak, and more interested in ladies, horses and sport than the governance of his kingdom. After royalist candidates suffered setbacks in local elections in April 1931, he abdicated. Whether he genuinely feared the revolutionary currents in the country or seized an opportunity to rid himself of his burdensome office (or both) is hard to tell.
Thus the Second Spanish Republic was proclaimed, with a government dominated by Masons, liberals and socialists. This heralded the beginning of the Spanish Revolution. Just like its French and Russian precursors, the primary object of revolutionary hatred was the Church. Already by the end of May 1931, over a hundred churches and convents had been burned to the ground by Communists and anarchists. Madrid was the worst afflicted area. Neither the police nor firefighters intervened. From now on, priests, monks and nuns were more or less fair game for the extreme Left. The government itself embarked on a campaign of religious persecution, confiscating the property of religious orders, closing Catholic schools and banning crucifixes from public spaces.
The escalation of violence in the years after the Leftist government under a liberal Freemason came to power becomes clear when one looks at the statistics: no bombings in 1930, then 175 in1931, 428 in1932 and 1,156 in1933. Towards the end of 1933, new elections were held that resulted in a great victory for a center-Right coalition. Predictably, this led to an intensification of the violence from the extreme Left. On 1 July 1934, former Prime Minister Azaña declared, “We prefer any kind of catastrophe to a Republic in the hands of monarchists and fascists, even if it means bloodshed.”
This soon came to pass, and on a large scale. On 5 October 1934, an attempt at revolution against the legally elected government was made in Asturias, on the north coast. The revolutionary forces consisted of 20,000 socialist miners, 6,000 Communists and uncounted thousands of anarchists. After 17 days of Red terror, including such atrocities as the slaughter of 34 priests, members of religious orders and seminarians, the Army intervened. Two days of fighting resulted in 1,300 dead and over 3,000 wounded. One of the generals in command was Francisco Franco, who has since been criticized for having dealt too harshly with the Reds. However, at the time, anyone of normal intelligence understood what a Communist regime would mean, and realized that any attempt to establish such a regime had to be firmly nipped in the bud. The Communist massacres in Russia and during Bela Kùn’s short-lived, but blood-soaked, reign in Hungary had not yet been smoothed over and hushed up in the manner which was to become the norm in the post-war Western world.
Compared with the previous year, 1935 was relatively calm. Violence continued, but on a smaller scale. By the beginning of 1936, the time had come for new elections. The French writer Christophe Dolbeau describes the election and its aftermath as follows: “On 16 February 1936, after an election marked by several irregularities, the Left finally got its famous victory that it so much desired. With a minority of the votes, it nevertheless obtained a comfortable majority in Parliament. This brought about the explosion of all frustrations, resentments and utopian fantasies, the plunge into the abyss. Strikes, occupations of land, assassinations, attacks on Army barracks, burnings of churches, journals and political offices: all provinces were set on fire without the government doing anything to assert its authority.”
Leftist liberal and Freemason Manuel Azaña once again became Prime Minister, and Spain quickly descended into violence and chaos. It was difficult for most Spaniards, whether they were for or against the new government, to fail to see it as only a transition prior to a Communist takeover. The parallels to the February 1917 Revolution in Russia were obvious. After the Tsar was forced to abdicate, Russia was formally run by the socialist and Freemason Kerensky, who paved the way for the Bolshevik Revolution in October of the same year. The Red Terror followed.
During the Republican regime’s first four months, the violence, which was de facto sanctioned by the government, claimed 269 dead, 1,287 wounded, 160 demolished churches, 341 strikes (one-third of which were general strikes), 146 bombings and ten destroyed newspapers.
Up until the outbreak of the Civil War, the violence predominantly came from the extreme Left. However, the Falangists, themselves a prime target for Left-wing violence, responded in kind.
Falange Española, the Falange, was the fascist party of Spain, founded and led by José Antonio Primo de Rivera, the oldest son of general Miguel Primo de Rivera, who, with the King’s approval, had been the country’s military dictator from 1921 until 1928 (he died in 1930). The Falangist social doctrine was radical in many ways. They did not designate themselves as fascists but as National Syndicalists, and there was a clear Left-wing element in this movement, which at the same time was generally strongly Catholic and nationalist. It also had a more intellectual profile than most fascist movements, which did not hamper a substantial influx of members from all social classes.
The other militant party of the Right was the Carlists. The movement took its name from a pretender to the Spanish throne, Don Carlos, whose claims led to three major wars during the nineteenth century, the Carlist Wars of 1833–40, 1847–49, and 1872–76. This was not merely a series of conflicts regarding monarchical succession, but wars fundamentally motivated by ideology. The Carlists represented a deeply religious, regional and rural conservatism in opposition to the reigning bourgeois, capitalistic liberalism which adhered to the principles of the French Revolution. Carlism had its immediate roots in the guerillas of the early nineteenth century, who had defended Faith and homeland against Napoleon’s armies. The same tactics — to compensate for inferiority in military strength by exploiting one’s superior knowledge of the terrain — had been systematically applied with considerable success by the politically kindred Vendéens and Chouans against the Revolutionary oppression of late eighteenth-century France.
Like Falangism, Carlism was staunchly anti-capitalist, but unlike the former, also radically anti-modernist. Its politico-philosophical doctrine was called Traditionalism. Carlism, too, was represented all over the country, but had its undisputed stronghold in the predominantly Basque region of Navarra. The Carlists were not involved in the deadly street-fighting of the cities to the same extent as the Falangists, but in the spring of 1936 in those areas where they dominated the countryside their armed forces, the red beret-clad requetés, renowned for their fighting skills and calm composure in the face of death began preparing for the war they knew was inevitable. On 7 March, more than four months before the outbreak of the Civil War, Jaime del Burgo, the commander of the Carlist Requeté of Pamplona, gave the following order of the day: “We will fall upon the barricades of the revolution and sweep away, forever, this filthy, foreign Marxism at the points of our bayonets!”
The Spanish officer corps at this time was infested by Freemasons at its highest levels. Only 17 generals sided with the rebels, whereas 22 stayed loyal to the Leftist regime. Francisco Franco was not originally a driving force behind the rebellion, but soon after he joined, he became its natural leader. At the time of the uprising he was stationed in the Canaries, an unusually peripheral post for an officer of his merit. The government clearly regarded him with some suspicion. He had, however, served for most of his career in Morocco, where he had distinguished himself fighting Muslim rebels and played an important part in the creation of the Spanish Foreign Legion (modeled after the French), of which he had also been the commander. He was highly respected by his men and fellow officers alike. The military units in Morocco were of vital importance to the rebellion, since they contained many of the best and most combat-experienced troops, not least the elite force, the Foreign Legion, which was to form the core of the nationalist forces during the war. There were also Muslim, “Moorish” troops who, unlike many Spanish soldiers, were unhampered by conflicts of loyalty.
The event that triggered the Civil War was the murder of the leader of the opposition, the highly respected Catholic politician José Calvo Sotelo. He was picked up at his home in Madrid on 13 July 1936 at 3 o’clock in the morning by the Guardia de Asalto, a police force created by the Leftist regime that recruited its members chiefly on their political attitudes. Before leaving his house, he promised his wife and daughter to phone them from the station, adding “unless these gentlemen intend to blow my brains out.” They drove him only a short distance and did just that, dumping the body by the nearest cemetery.
As the young socialist terrorist in police uniform, Victor Cuenca, pulled the trigger, he not only murdered Calvo Sotelo, but unwittingly fired the signal for the nationalist uprising.
Jonas De Geer is a Swedish writer who lives in Orkney, Scotland. He was the editor of the Swedish conservative magazine Samtidsmagasinet Salt between 1999 and 2002, and has written extensively on nationalist subjects. This article was previously published in Swedish in the Stockholm nationalist weekly Nationell Idag.
Bibliography
Blinkhorn, Martin, Carlism and Crisis in Spain, 1931-1939 (Cambridge, 1975).
Carrol, Warren, The Last Crusade (Front Royal, Virginia 1996).
Dolbeau, Christophe, Ce qu’on ne vous a jamais dit sur la guerre d’Espagne (Atelier Fol’fer 2010).
Othen, Christopher, Franco’s International Brigades (Chippenham,Wiltshire 2008).
O’Duffy, Crusade in Spain, (Clonskeagh, 1938).
Payne, Stanley, The Civil War in Spain (New York, 1962).
Poncins, Léon de, Histoire secrète de la Révolution Espagnole (Paris, 1942).
Facing the Future as a Minority
It would be interesting to know who were really behind the often mentioned freemasons in this story (Jewish bankers?). And what about the reported heavy Jewish involvement in the International Brigades? (according to Wikipedia: “It is estimated that up to 25% of the IB Fighters were Jewish”). It may perhaps seem paranoid but one begins to suspect a Jewish role in nearly all revolutions of modern history. The cruel persecution of Catholicism, the destruction of its churches and monastries and the murder of its priests and nuns looks suspiciously like what happened in the Russian revolution. And we know who were really behind that revolution.
@Franklin Ryckaert: Again, E. Michael Jones answers you queries about the role of jews in Revolution.
Also we need to get clear on the Masons. I suspect that much drivel has been written on them. My sense is that they were non-leftist liberals advocating “progress” , technical and scientific skill, and things like universal suffrage. The”Deism” of the 18th century may also have been a part, at least a strain if not a major theme of anti-religion. Maybe there was an anti-Catholic and anti-clerical factor. Clandestine or “secret” organization would have been normal for areas dominated by the Church and Old Regime.
I hope de Geer addresses this issue. Good piece. joe
I’ve long-felt that it’ll take a general to save Europeans. How do the commanders of Europe’s militaries feel about their governments’ politics? Surely there must be anger somewhere?
the question remains: was Franco and Spain fascist? Probably not because of Church, Old Regime, and anti-democracy. Fascism is arguably a “democratic” form inasmuch as it is popular, but nevertheless traditional. Fascism also claimed the corporatist state as an organic form. To the extent that Old Regime ideology holds popular people’s movements in contempt, it certainly is not fascist. j
Pablo Picasso’s uncle, his mother’s brother, was one of Franco’s generals.
When asked by a German office visting his studio in Paris during WWII if he did Guernica? Picasso replied, no, you did.
The anti-Catholic rioting started when thousands of fetuses and the remains of hundreds of torture victims, some wraped in barb wire were found by rioters who broke into a number of Roman Catholic convents. It was ugly, and has been documented.
Don’t expect too much from our own Spanish/mestizo admixture that has creeped across our southern border when they start acting up more than they are now.
For addition to a bibliography:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=%22thorns+of+memory%22&x=0&y=0
Another one:
http://www.amazon.com/Brother-Against-Experiences-British-Volunteer/dp/0750916451
You mean there ae only two choices Communism and Fascism? Nonensense.
The Spanish Civil War was a complicated historical event. Your description of this complicated historical event would appeal to a simpleton. Also, what’s a communist..anyone to the left of Franco? Is this the best you can come up with?
And what type of economic system comes with Franco Facism..extreme privitazation of the economy like post-Pinochet Chile?
Listen up:Ronnei Reagan’s terrorist wars of aggresion on behalf of Fascist forces in Latin and Central America went-hand in hand-with Native Born white American race-replacement..that still goes on to this day. In other words, The Cold War- which you are apparently so enomoured-of is went hand-in hand woth Native Born white American race-replacement..indisputale fact….these days the boogey man has a new name Islamo-terrorist..different name same racket.. as the late General Smedley utler wrote 75 years ago:War is a racket..the Cold War was a racket waged y the likes of sex fiend and rapist John F Kennedy who cam very close to incinerating millions of Russian and Native Born White Americans into carbon lumps…done in defense of facists regimes in Latin and Central America. Ultimately , you are a fool.
@Tom:
That sounds like typical Freemasonic war propaganda. Is this documentation online?
Congratulations to Mr. De Geer for this first article on the Spanish Civil War. I am looking forward for the next parts.
When it is about attacking the Catholic Church, it is surprising how Freemasons, Communist, Liberals, Jews et al find common ground. The Church must be up to something! Many honest non-belivers, but defenders of Civilization, like New Zelander Kerry Bolton have arrived to the same conclusion. This interview with Dr. Bolton in Alternative Right is worth reading:
http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/zeitgeist/interview-with-kerry-bolton/
P.S. The irrational hatred of “Tom” for the Catholic Church is similar to the irrational hatred of some Jews for white Christian people… what makes me think about who “Tom” really is.
Dark Henry and Rykaert are pushing-ultimately-the Cold War racket of Republican-Democratic Corporate Elites …this is where all the Franco-Fascism enthusiasm leads..a direct route..ultimately to Native Born White American race-replacement.
There are different tendencies within the Catholic Church. The Opus Dei-Franco Catholism was-is fundamentally about extreme violence of Dark Age Frankish Elites and their corrupt descendants and thuggish enforcers such as Franco directed at various peasant revolts throughout European and American history.
@Edward: First let me say I’m not taking any side in this crazy civil war between the marginally White Spaniards 99.5% of whom were Roman Catholics.
You can Google just as good as I can, and the Spanish will look bad no matter what you Google up. LOL.
Maybe you Roman Catholics will enjoy what these Spanish/Indian/Negro admixtures will do now that they have invaded the US in large numbers. The Spaiards themselves are crazy enough.
Knock yourself out defending your fellow Roman Catholics.
Google away my man.
All this propaganda about the Spanish being White in the Northern European sense is baloney—they are mixed with Jews, Arabs, & Africans of various shades. You want to dispute that too?
@Franklin Ryckaert:
If memory serves, the Freemasons began around the time of the French Revolution, to give Jews and Christians a neutral ground on which to meet. It would, therefore, not be surprising if anyone disenchanted with the Catholic Church would be among the first to join.
An interesting article Jonas. Many years ago I joined an advertising firm which employed a number of interesting older fellows many of whom were with the International Brigade. They always called each other ‘Comrade’. I liked these guys, but even at the age of 24 I didn’t agree with them. Reflecting on the 1930′s, it occurs to me those times were not unlike what we face today. The entire West is ruled by Cultural Marxism and has been completely and in my opinion, deliberately, bankrupted by inner party tribe of swindlers who infest the World’s Banking systems. Greece and Italy’s elected governments have been replaced by Bank installed gangsters who expect populations of these states to endure years of austerity while they sink their grappling hooks into everything. How long will it take for the people to wake up and do what the Icelanders did? They said NO BAILOUTS and JAILED their Bankers! Sooner or later this will happen in Europe……..then America.
@Franklin Ryckaert:
The traditional Catholic view of Freemasonry is that of a Jewish banker-sponsored Gentile auxiliary force. It is organized, like Judaism, as series of increasingly secretive concentric circles. Members in the outer circles are the first line of defense but are misled about the hidden aims and associations of their leaders. Loyalty is rewarded with first preference for employment at banker-controlled corporations and governments.
Freemasonry was repeatedly condemned in successive Eighteenth and Nineteenth Century papal encyclicals. Catholic traditionalists maintain that the 1960′s Vatican II reforms were imposed by secretly pledged Freemasons that infiltrated to high offices in the Church.
The Anti-masonc Party was the first modern political party in the United States. In the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, protocol 15 says “we shall create and multiply free masonic lodges in all the countries of the world.” A few years ago, the Southern Baptist Convention almost succeeded in banning Masonic adherents but was ultimately thwarted.
The three key foundational events of the modern revolutionary era were the 1688 Glorious Revolution, the 1694 Bank of England incorporation, and the 1717 establishment of modern Freemasonry. The Bank of England is the mother bank of all subsequent central banks including the Federal Reserve.
@Tom: It is no surprise that you try to change the subject away from your defense of the communist slaughter of Spanish priests. I did not find any support for your Masonic propaganda on Google. The only place I have ever seen charges like that before was in Chick comics.
Entirely off topic but a bracing reminder of how fragile civilization is. Victor Hanson on Californian collapse.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/01/19/civilization_in_reverse_112815.html
Abe Foxman is angry at Obama’s Center for American Progress:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/center-for-america-progress-group-tied-to-obama-accused-of-anti-semitic-language/2012/01/17/gIQAcrHXAQ_story.html
So now it makes sense why the Catholic Church was sympathetic to the Nazi’s during and after the war. Survival. But yes, now they have open Jews in the Catholic Church at the highest levels, something has happened. If they have all the churches, it makes it so much harder.
The Bolsheviks, the French, and the Spanish revolutionaries all persecuted and murdered Christians in staggering numbers. The Western press–remember Walter Duranty–lied about this, still do. Freemasons, some Jews, Anarchists, Liberals, Communists, aren’t usually happy campers, really.
To All (and esp. to Dr. MacDonald, my apologies).
Forgive me for breaking into the comments and on-going discussion of this excellent article, and all of the salient points all of you for advanced so far, but this forum is the best means that I know of to pass an urgent and important message to all of you.
Pls go to this link, read the most recent comments from oppressed whites in South Africa (you will have to scroll down), and then crash this comment board with messages in support for our white brothers and sisters left to die by the international multicults, and/or comments against the SPLC. Thank you,
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/01/13/youth-for-western-civilization-weighs-in-on-south-african-violence-targeting-whites/#comments
May The God of the Universe Be With YOU, and protect YOU from the judeo-islamic semitic demon-god of this World.
@Edward:
I have not made a thorough study of freemasonry but my impression is that it was either founded by Jews or has been infiltrated and taken over by them. What strikes me is the entirely un-Christian spirit of it all. People with a Christian background even if they are secular or have broken with Christianity cannot help but betray their former belief in the style of their expressions. That is entirely lacking in freemasonry. Central to its ideas is the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. That is not what one would expect from (ex-) Christians, rather from Jews. Besides, all this talk about “tolerance” and “brotherhood” without consideration of background is what one would expect of Jews who sought admission to high society from which they were excluded. A secret society, international in orientation lends itself perfectly for Jewish manipulation. Add to this that freemasonry is essentially an elite club what more could Jews possibly want?
Again, the cruel persecution of all things Catholic during the Spanish revolution seems uncharacteristic even for ex-Catholics. One would rather suspect it to be a Jewish revenge for what Catholicism did to them at the time of the Inquisition. That was more than 500 years ago,but is such belated revenge not typical for a people that has as one of its mottos “never forget, never forgive”?
@Tom:
Your post is a heavy serving of baloney: there is no one “Spaniard” type. A Galician won’t have much in common with a Catalan, nor will a Basque have much in common with an Isleño. In any case, the various Spanish ethnic groups all have much more in common with other Europeans than any Middle Eastern or African groups. Ignorant North Americans make the mistake of confusing Iberians with the mostly mestizo population of Latin America (I imagine them expecting to find tamales and enchiladas among the staples of Spaniards), much like their habit of confusing England with Britain.
@wattylersrevolt: whoa there buddy….easy does it. Communists, anarchists, and falangists were the central players. Dunno about the Carlists, but Franco himself must have been influenced by them.
George Orwell fought with the anarchists, wrote Homage to Catalonia as I recall, and assuming that he was an upright guy, told the truth.
So, what is the Truth , per you? j
@Tom: Richard Lynn gives Spain an average IQ of 98. If there is mixing with Arabs, it is slight. Portugal on the other hand has a national IQ of 95 and is said to have imported black slaves and used them on Europen soil…the only country to have done so.
Spaniards are White and to diss them is ridiculous.
@Marcus: right, Spain was settled by Germanic Goths and Frankish Celts after Rome disintegrated about 500 AD. There was a mixing of northern European tribes/peoples with the Romans who were originally as White as and Northerner, and then various mixtures of Etruscan and other blood. I assume that the “invading” northern tribes more or less saved southern Europe from complete White blood loss. Then also, the other northern Whites, the Vandals got into the Magrib , probably crossing at Gibralter. So, a little darker blood, but there it is: about as pure as the northern countries of Europe.
Now of course Madrid has those cute little Equadoran guys with funny hats doing a lot of crime…taking over city parks, etc. now.
@Edward: As I noted on another thread, Tom’s lies are big and his howling loud in inverse proportion to his knowledge of the topic at hand. He has been caught red-handed in lies and misrepresentations about a whole range of things from art history to William Pierce, but his targets of choice are Roman Catholics and the Catholic Church. Since Spain was for five centuries, before the collapse of the country into the Semitic sewer about twenty years ago, the preeminent example of a Catholic state, no lie about it is too base or too transparent for him to utter.
One example among many may be found in his racial sneers at the Spanish people. Even the hardened Christophobes hereabouts know something of Spanish history, and so it is reasonable to suppose that our dear Tom isn’t just inadvertently passing a little gas after a big dinner when he starts equating Spaniards with “Jews, Arabs, and Africans.” Virtually every supporter of a back-to-the-Goths view of whiteness knows that prior to the 711 invasion, the population of Spain consisted of a Visigothic ruling class and a sizable Visigothic and Vandalic segment of the other classes, with the remainder of the population being (1) transplanted Romans of many centuries’ residence and (2) the far older peoples the Romans had conquered, variously of Gaulish, aboriginal Iberian, and Punic stock.
Populations don’t come any whiter than that, of course, and even today there are probably more blue-eyed blond people to be found in Aragon and Castile than in any European capital south of Copenhagen. The descendants of the Visigoth Pelagius of Asturias, who began the Reconquista, and of the overwhelming majority of those who, unlike him and his people, did not fall to the Muslim conquerors had far less intercourse with their Islamic masters (or with the Moors’ clandestine masters, the Jews) than any of the peoples of the Balkans, for example, could ever claim.
In short, good ol’ Tom is attacking Spaniards for their religion, which he hates as much as any rabbi does. As Dark Henry wisely pointed out, what this suggests about Tom is pretty clear.
I see now that Joe Webb and Marcus have also chimed in. My hat’s off to them, too.
@Pierre de Craon: I meant to write “. . . and of the overwhelming majority of those who, unlike him and his people, fell to the Muslim conquerors. . . .” Sorry. I redrafted the sentence without remembering to change the form of the verb.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there are people who read TOO who know a good deal more about the true history of the Spanish Civil War than I do, but I think it’s safe to say that in this article—rather, this fragment of a larger article—Jonas de Geer is exposing more of that truth to more people ignorant of it than has been the case at any time since, oh, 1960. By 1971, my last year ever in a classroom as a student, I knew exactly one history prof who still had the integrity to speak the truth about the Nationalists and the Republicans, and he was the object of his colleagues’ open sneers—which they made no effort to conceal from either grads or undergrads.
Three cheers for Jonas de Geer, not least for his bibliography, which has increased by three the number of reliable books about the war of whose existence I am aware. I am especially glad to see any mention of Léon de Poncins, the great historian conspiracies. I would be very surprised if his book about the Spanish war, which was never translated into English to my knowledge, is in any way inferior to his important books about the Jewish and Masonic conspiracies, which were translated.
Incidentally, I hope that Mr. de Geer plans to write a bit about the reaction of other European writers and thinkers to the war. In France, about which I know the most, many old friendships were sundered and many new and unlikely alliances made on the basis of views about the war, the point being that the terrible significance of the war and the utter Bolshevik depravity of the so-called Republicans were far more obvious to Spain’s neighbors than they ever became to people on this side of the Atlantic, where the Tribe already had a near-complete stranglehold on the information and entertainment media.
Promoting a discredited fascist ideology associated with war and repression of workers on behalf of a small, economically privileged fraction of the population is to shoot oneself in the foot. That dog has long since stopped hunting.
I wonder if Hemingway’s “For Whom the Bell Tolls” hasn’t also tipped the scales further (not that they weren’t already tipped) in favor of the ‘heroic struggle against the fascists.’ Literature can certainly be a powerful tool in the service of the idealization of an event.
@Tom: “[t]housands of fetuses and the remains of hundreds of torture victims, some wraped in barb wire were found by rioters who broke into a number of Roman Catholic convents.”
Why did the nuns people keep fetuses? Were they doing stem cell research?
@Joe Webb:
Joe you are from southern California, right? Just look out your window. LOL. You can see the “Spanish” in action.
Who is responsible for the headless corpses they have been finding in Arizona & California? The same type of “Spanish” character the authorities caught for the homeless killing spree in Orange County?
One thing that really separates nationalists in Europe is the issue of Freemasonry.
Masons are seen as virtually the greatest threat of our times by nationalists in Catholic and Orthodox countries, while in Britain some Masonic or semi-masonic groups like the Orange Order are closely connected to the native Protestant “traditionalists”.
Maybe it is because Masonry is native to Britain, while in other parts of Europe it is seen as a foreign import. A liberal, universalist and anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox import.
@Walter L: It all starts with Setmana Tràgica, or Tragic Week in 1909 in Barcelona and the Catalonia region of Spain.
You can go forward from there—it ain’t pretty!
The point I’m trying to make to @Edward is that the pro-Roman Catholic accounts are just as grisly as any accounts he sees as anti-Catholic.
Do we want to get into a discussion of pain & Roman Catholicism? Like the practice of flagellation, self flagellation, and mock crucification as practiced in Spain & former Spanish colonies? I guess the Catholics here are ok with that?
From what I’ve read the Roman Catholic defense of the finding of the remains of torture victims & fetuses was explained by the Roman Catholic Church as being relics.
They may well have been relics. Spare me the rack, O’ Holy Father.
“The anti-Catholic rioting started when thousands of fetuses and the remains of hundreds of torture victims, some wraped in barb wire were found by rioters who broke into a number of Roman Catholic convents. It was ugly, and has been documented.”
This is obviously communist propaganda.
@Nils: Considering Spain is 99.5% Roman Catholic, why would half of the Roman Catholic population go on a riot, pillage, and murder binge for 40 years against their own church? Starting long before the Spanish civil war in the mid 1930′s.
Read about the Setmana Tràgica, something like 386 convents were sacked by crowds of women in Catalonia.
I’m not making any excuses for Spanish behavior. If it’s Franco bringing in Moslem troops to kill Roman Catholics, the Republicans using the very Jewish international brigades, or Roman Catholic anarchists or socialists killing Priests. There’s no excuse for Spanish behavior.
All I can say, is God help the United States when this very large crazy admixture of Spanish/Mesatizo/Zambo Roman Catholics that we have now in the US really starts acting up.
Maybe Mexican Nazi low riders, and, jumping bean cars are the thing of the future.
Tom, do you have any evidence that the horror stories about fetuses and torture victims are true?
@Tom: You are a troll. Your position on the Spanish Civil War is so indefensible, that you can only support it by linking it to a straw man in each one of your posts. Everybody already agrees that Mexican immigration that is a bad thing, but it has nothing to do the Spanish Civil War.
Spain was experiencing the pains that every newly industrialized country went through. Its workers had been unionized and brainwashed by the international Communist movement, much like in Germany and most other European countries. Communist propaganda linked the Catholic Church with the bourgeoisie. The union commissars directed attacks against the convent soft targets and the army struck back.
This will be the third time I ask you to provide citation for your claim that “thousands of fetuses and the remains of hundreds of torture victims” were found in the convents.
@Nils: Agreed. That “piles of fetuses” stuff is complete rubbish. ALSO: The storied Abraham Lincoln Brigade was comprised almost entirely of American Jews. They weren’t at all effective, but they’ve managed to grab oodles of glowing press (much of it written by themselves, of course) in the intervening years. ALSO: Picasso’s “Guernica” painting was originally something completely different — a bullfight or some such thing. He simply reworked it for propaganda purposes.
@ethnonationalism:
Orangemen focus on defending their conquests in Ireland, not on resisting the Jews. Germany is majority Protestant but the National Socialists still had a big problem with Masons. Any nationalism that resists Jewish control is usually targeted by Masons.
@Tom:
Tom you say that, “The anti-Catholic rioting started when thousands of fetuses and the remains of hundreds of torture victims, some wraped in barb wire were found by rioters who broke into a number of Roman Catholic convents.”
Were the rioters that broke into a number of Roman Catholic convents pro-Catholic rioters? Any rioting that breaks into a Roman Catholic convent has to be anti-Catholic rioting by definition.
So what we have is anti-Catholic rioting started when anti-Catholic rioting had already begun. This is illogical and an impossibility. Your thesis of the Catholic Church being evil rests on this faulty premise.
It is hard to believe that the Catholic Church, an organization that has operated thousands of hospitals that have healed millions of men, women, and children would also run a place for killing babies and torturing to death people.
Catholics are knowledgeable in science having many universities throughout Spain and the world. So it is also hard to believe that they could not find a way to dispose of the evidence of murder.
Finally the nuns that were capturing, torturing, and killing men by wrapping them in barb wire had to be pretty strong. You must have seen the movie The Blues Brothers where a nun beats up Jake and Elwood. Only one in a million nuns is really that strong.
@Walter L:
Remember a few weeks ago when someone posted a story about Mexicans i.e. Roman Catholics breaking into Roman Catholic churches in southern California? There is a rich history of this type of behavior in both Mexico, and Spain. Some claim it goes all the way back to the influence Augustine. LOL.
Some Roman Catholic apologists claim in Spain there was a huge class division between the upper, and lower class RC priests leading to class antagonism between Roman Catholics. I will leave that type of analysis up to you.
You can read the reports from Setmana Tràgica or any other Spanish “noir” and make up your own mind.
As far as I know the reports of the tortured corpses were all of women.
All I can say to my Roman Cathoic friends is have fun with your 40 Million new Roman Catholic co-religionist “Spanish” neighbors from Latino America.
@Nils— I don’t know, but, as I mentioned before flagellation, self flagellation, mock crucifiixtion, with real nails and thorns is part of the Roman Catholic religious practice in Spain and it’s colonies.
Of course I’ve always dismissed the sexual abuse stories of Roman Catholic priests in the USA!
@ Flosie—There are photographs—I’m not digging them up. This is a sick enough topic.
@Walter L:
“Were the rioters that broke into a number of Roman Catholic convents pro-Catholic rioters? Any rioting that breaks into a Roman Catholic convent has to be anti-Catholic rioting by definition.”
Lo and behold, logic. Wonder what Tom has to say to that?
@ W.P. Tepes:
“Pls go to this link, read the most recent comments from oppressed whites in South Africa (you will have to scroll down), and then crash this comment board with messages in support for our white brothers and sisters left to die by the international multicults, and/or comments against the SPLC. Thank you”
W.P.; I went there and read some of the broadsides & interchanges back and forth, but can see little point in feeding into this as it is utterly pointless. Consider; you are posting on the Southern Poverty Law Center site- as leftest and Jewish as a website can be- and those who are there are already “adherents to the faith” so to speak. Posting there convinces none of them of anything and only adds to their joy at your (our White people’s) misery. Better to save your energy to work within groups of Whites who know what is happening and try to develop strategy to “secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children”.
As for the South African Whites, sigh – what CAN we do for them? For that matter, what can we do for the native Whites of Great Britain and Europe? The South African Whites actually voted away their own future and capitulated to the blacks there. The British gave up their ownership of arms (I am sorry to offend any Brits here, but that was terribly stupid) and the Europeans? With their history of trouble at the hands of Jews and their endless attempts at manipulating politics to their advantage, to the point that many European countries had banished Jews in the past, they should have seen this turmoil coming long ago. Consider that most of these European nations, England as well as the US, were duped into killing their racial kin in Germany in two World Wars thereby serving Jewish interests by culling the (genetically) best Whites from our gene pool and it becomes apparent how we have arrived at today’s dire situation for our people. We cannot sway our governments to intervene in South African White’s behalf as that is not their agenda. All we can do is hope to help our own where it is possible.
@Tom: tom , you are out of your mind. or an agent of a foreign power. The mestizos are basically inuns.
There’s always one anti-Catholic on a list that must seize upon a vague short paragraph of bodies wrapped in barbed wire and something about fetuses and use this as proof that the entire religion is evil. I have no idea what that short paragraph is about. What’s the entire story of that event before passing judgement.
I would just like to say that non-Catholics have no idea what they are talking about when it comes to things like self-flagellation, and they really ought not to be saying anything on that subject. It’s a mystical thing, and not all Catholics practice it. And for those who do, the opinions of non-Catholics is neither here nor there. But remember, even your favored and protected religion of Islam practices self-flagellation, but I suppose all the liberal non-Catholics have nothing to say about that at all — which is what they should be saying (nothing) about the mystical expression from the Catholic end. In other words, the mystical expression is none of your business if you’re not Catholic and you have no concept of the mysticism behind it. Or if you do, apparently you still don’t like it, but who cares since you’re not Catholic?
I don’t now what this constant reference to ‘Setmana Tràgica’ is suppose to prove. From wiki, it merely talks about anarchists and communists rising up and fighting the Spanish Army:
‘Tragic Week (in Catalan la Setmana Tràgica, in Spanish la Semana Trágica) (July 25 – August 2, 1909) is the name used for a series of bloody confrontations between the Spanish army and the working classes of Barcelona and other cities of Catalonia (Spain), backed by anarchists, socialists and republicans, during the last week of July 1909. ‘
If this constant reference to ‘Setmana Tràgica’ is suppose to show somehow some brutality by the Right against the Left, all I can say is that in times of chaos and revolution, both sides go at it tit for tat, so why blame only the Right?
Also the same applies to mock mock crucifiixtion, with real nails and thorns is part of the Roman Catholic religious practice in Spain. What’s it to anyone who isn’t Catholic? Sure I wouldn’t do it, and certainly not all Catholics do it, but it’s frankly none of anyone’s business who isn’t Catholic to have a thing to say about it. For non-Catholics to use self-flagellation and mock crucifixions as somehow ‘proof’ that Catholicism is evil, one wonders if such liberals are fond of Sharia Law. I suppose they are, since they never seem to pass judgement on Sharia Law.
@ Tom –
Remember a few weeks ago when someone posted a story about Mexicans i.e. Roman Catholics breaking into Roman Catholic churches in southern California? There is a rich history of this type of behavior in both Mexico, and Spain. Some claim it goes all the way back to the influence Augustine. LOL.
No, I don’t remember this. Never heard of it. Did you forget to give a reference to a news item or something? Vague statements like this as ‘proof’ of anything are very annoying to read.
You might also consider there are today Marxist and Liberal Catholics both hellbent on destroying Catholicism, in particular Traditional Catholicism. Were these the ones who broke into the churches?
@Joe Webb: You got Walter claiming that in 99.5% Roman Catholic
Spain, Roman Catholics were not killing each other during the Spanish Civil War.
Now you are going to tell me that the invaders from South of the border are not a mixture of Spanish, Indians, and Negroes, the “Mestizo Nation”. (they have Orientals & Asiatics thrown in too).
Then some unknown quanity is defending self-flagellation & mock crucifixiton on a website owned by a Dr. of Psychology. Please.
There’s a transcript, possibly an actual recording of Hitler complaining about Franco, and the Spanish. LOL.
@Hooper: You’re certainly on the right track, but Hemingway’s novel did far more than tip the scales; it actually set the whole Establishment tone. It served as the useful-idiot confirmation of what our sensitive, brilliant, and benevolent Jewish leaders had been telling us all along. In return for his service to Tribal interests, Hemingway was elevated by the media to heroic status and, for a time at least, to a position of enviable wealth.
Have you read the novel? If you haven’t, don’t bother; it’s almost as poor as the mediocre movie, on which shooting must have begun within weeks of the novel’s publication (ah, Hollywood! what a nose for quality it has). Amazingly, it was taught as a piece of genuine literature for several decades and still retains a hard but much reduced following in the academic world—and you know who runs that world.
There is a not entirely bad film called The Moderns, directed by Alan Rudolph and set in 1920s Paris. Its prize scenes are those in which a young Hemingway is caricatured, mercilessly but justly. In his final appearance on camera, Hemingway, sitting at the bar (presumably that of Harry’s New York Bar), is seen scribbling and heard muttering, “Paris is a . . . portable banquet.” Another character, on the way out, turns to him and says pointedly, “Work on it.” (The reference is to H.’s late novel A Moveable Feast.)
@Pierre de Craon:
Hemingway was a good writer. As a person he was probably pretty loathsome, like most writers, but his novels are great. I also seriously doubt he was a pro-tribal tool. The Sun Also Rises was accused of antisemitism because of his portrayal of it’s only Jewish character as sleazy and cowardly (he’s always latching himself to the main group and trying to seduce a WASP woman, and when she rejects him he unleashes his anger by brutally beating up a defenseless teenager that she sleeps with).
One of the lies “Tom” often repeats is that of the supposed axis between Jews and Catholics. The true is quite different of course. More often than not it has been Jews triangulating against Catholics (and Orthodox) with Muslims and Protestants, especially the Calvinist/Puritan variety. Not surprise there considering that Islam is basically Judaism for dumb people, and Calvinism/Puritansim is a judaized version of Christianity. You can see this is precisely in the history of the Spain that “Tom” hates so much. Several examples comes to mind: a) the role of the Jews during the Islamic invasion of Iberia, b) the role of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire and the battle of Lepanto, where a Spanish-led armada saved the day for Europe and Western Civilization, c) the Black Legend against Spain developed in Puritan England and Calvinist Holland and funded by Jews. Not for nothing former areas/countries that in the past were taken by Puritans/Calvinists (usually by force and against the will of the majority) become today at the same time mentally Judaized and morally a sewage (England, Holland, New England).
These attitudes linger and you can still see them resurfacing ocasionally when these lovely folks feel safe enough to speak their mind or think that nobody is watching them. Here is the Derb, former Protestant turned atheist and a depicable character in other departments as well, happily singing with a Rabbi anti-Catholic Protestant songs from the Masonic Orange Order. How symbolic!
http://takimag.com/article/the_right_not_to_commit_suicide/#axzz1k2SFG4AW
@wattylersrevolt:
I fear you may be getting your information from popular novels. You are not giving our history and heritage a fair hearing. It is far more complicated than that.
What I already suspected about a Jewish role in the Spanish revolution seems to be confirmed in the remarks on this very same article of De Geer’s in Vanguard News Network of 20 january,2012: When Good Triumphed Over Evil. See there for a list of “Russian” (=Jewish) top military men who participated in the slaughter of Spanish Catholics. The comments are also very instructive. It is as always: cherchez le Juif.
@Dark Henry: Tom is a troll but in all fairness to Protestants, the Catholic record over the past several decades of resisting Jews has been nothing to brag about either. Catholics are in dyer need of a return to their Tradition.
@Dark Henry:
You’re totally correct, after the Dutch Revolt, Calvinist Amsterdam was viewed as the “New Jerusalem” for Jewish exiles from Iberia. The ardent Protestant Cromwell welcomed the Jews back into England in exchange for a line of credit from exiled Iberian Jewish bankers. For about 6 centuries Spain (and before that Castile/Aragon and Portugal) and its Habsburg dynastic ally Austria bore the brunt of the Muslim assault on Europe. All the while the Protestant powers (England, Holland) and France were busy taking advantage of the Habsburgs’ struggle with the Turks and Saracens by encouraging piratical attacks on Spain and its colonies and interfering with Imperial politics to the detriment of Austria.
@fender: While I can’t say that I any longer think Hemingway was truly a good writer, I do agree that The Sun Also Rises has interest; indeed, I think it his best book. I had a bit of a passion for The Old Man and the Sea when I was in college, but fortunately it disappeared along with the last of my acne. I never read To Have and Have Not, and not even the improved John Garfield / Michael Curtiz remake of the Bogart/Hawks film could inspire me to have a go at the book.
If I seemed to be saying that he was consciously in service to the Tribe, I apologize for so suggesting, and I thank you for calling attention to it. He was, however, a doctrinaire Marxist, and all such furthered the Tribe’s ends, wittingly or not. I don’t know whether Hemingway, like Faulkner and Steinbeck, ever went to Hollywood as a screenwriter, but the studios sure did no harm to his marketability.
As to his personality, did you know that he and Alec Guinness became friends of a sort late in H.’s life? It’s been many years since I read Guinness’s autobiography, but I recall being struck by the way he recounts how H. could be very affectionate and very scary, very macho and very “sensitive,” all at once. I guess that’s what folks mean when they talk about manic-depressiveness.
While I am correcting poor word choices and outright misstatements, I ought to add that A Moveable Feast was a posthumous collection of thises and thats; thus, it was neither “late” nor a novel.
@Edward:
Agreed, the combined blows of Soviet occupation in the East and liberal infiltration in the West has had a disastrous effect to say the least. Meanwhile in Spain there was a tremendous Western-funded backlash against traditional values after the end of the Franco era.
@Edward: You are 100 percent correct. As an international phenomenon, subservience to Jewish interests was reified at the Second Vatican Council, but the U.S. groundwork had been laid decades earlier, as I know from my own experience and research, and the church in western Europe had also been thoroughly subverted by the Jews for as long or longer.
The rot, which Pius X denounced as Modernism in his 1907 encyclical Pascendi, was already deeply entrenched 105 years ago. Pius X knew he hadn’t stamped it out, but he hoped to begin the process of destruction. Instead, it went underground, where it put out roots that choked everything they got hold of.
@ Pierre de Craon:
http://goo.gl/jVL4j
Before they get their IP lockdown! Thanks for the tip.
RE: ‘in Chick comics’
Actually I recall Circa 1974 a Comic that claimed in China
the schools had maps that called Australia ‘New China’…
and look at how China is now buying up SAfrica and Australian
commodities.
THIS IS OFF TOPIC BUT…
Do folks here know that Rahm Emmanuels dad was a terrorist?
And Rahmbos brother is Michael Murphy s agent in Hollywood?
@ Tom:
“La Semana Trágica”. ¡Atención a la ortografía, por favor!
@ mí mismo: ¡D’Oh!
I’m sure few here will be surprised at a dilettante’s efforts at spying for the KGB:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/09/hemingway-failed-kgb-spy
@Hedgerow:
How did it get discredited? Are you sure that it repressed workers? Matthew Raphael Johnson has a different view.
@Flossie:
The propagandistic representation of events at Guernica implied by Picasson’s painting seems to be a wild distortion.
@Trenchant: Brilliant, Trenchant! That’s exactly the edition that I own. I’d never have guessed that it would turn up, whole and entire, in downloadable form.
@Dark Henry: Thank you for calling out Derbyshire, a truly creepy guy. He seems so intent on keeping a foot in so many camps that I wonder sometimes whether he’s actually an octopoidal life-form or, like the old mystery writer Ellery Queen, a committee posing as an individual.
@Tom:
“All I can say to my Roman Cathoic friends is have fun with your 40 Million new Roman Catholic co-religionist “Spanish” neighbors from Latino America. ”
To say that those Mestizos are Spanish, is like saying that the English-speaking Black Protestants in the USA are English.
@Hadding Scott: Yes, I’m sure. And that goes a long way to explaining why it is dead as an ideology among the masses. It does appeal especially to certain segments of capital and petty capital in times of crisis.
@Hedgerow:
The fact that you say that you are sure explains something? I don’t see that it explains anything.
The main factor that has prevented the popularity of fascism, national-socialism, phalangism, among workers in the Anglosphere is propaganda. Mass-media have taken these options off the table for us. With our new media, the Internet, we can put them back on the table, if we are not so stupid as to accept as permanent the biases and distortions that have been established hitherto.
That Guernica painting makes a lot more sense as a dream of a bullfight gone terribly wrong. There are only five human faces represented in it and nothing that suggests war. There are no guns, no falling bombs, no planes in the sky, no explosions.
@Hadding Scott: It has been taken off the table worldwide, which makes my point.
@Hedgerow:
It makes the point that when the mass-media serve Kool-Aid, you drink it.
@Hedgerow:
Wait what? Phalangist disagreements with the Republicans was mostly nationalism and cultural conservatism vs internationalism and radical cultural liberalism. They were basically in agreement with the Socialists on economic policy (not the Anarchists or communists though).
@Hadding Scott and Hedgerow (etc.)
The main factor that has prevented the popularity of fascism, national-socialism, phalangism, among workers in the Anglosphere is propaganda. Mass-media have taken these options off the table for us. With our new media, the Internet, we can put them back on the table,
After reading a little about Corneliu Zelea Codreanu (and struck by how handsome he was) who founded the Iron Guard in Romania in 1927, I figured how bad could Fascism be. (This is tongue-in-cheek, but Codreanu *was* handsome.)
The Iron Guard was ultra-nationalist, fascist, anti-communist, and promoted the Orthodox Christian faith, as per wiki, and though I was willing to give Fascism a hearing, no matter how much I try to show some good points about Fascism online, other posters are horrified at the thought of anyone being in favor of Fascism. I wonder if there are any comparisons between Romania and Spain in regard to how well Fascism worked in those two countries?
Was Fascism, as such, simply a reaction against Marxism, Communism, and anarchistic thought (especially in Spain where most of the population seem to be anarchists)? What is the difference between Fascism and Totalitarianism? In some ways I can see how Fascism is totally non-progressive as far as the human condition is concerned, especially when combined with the Church, which seems to be the reason for Fascism, I think?
Sorry if my questions seem a bit ignorant, but I’ve never given thought to any ‘-isms’ much before. But from what little I’ve read about Fascism, the ideology seems to have some positive points. For instance I read somewhere that under Franco, Spain had been doing well economically and the country had been stable. And Codreanu certainly had his positive points too.
@Bluerose: It’s mainly the word fascism to which people object, because they have been conditioned. If you say that you want a government that will curtail foreign influence, including immigration, in the country, while maintaining social welfare and effecting jobs programs for full employment, you will find much more acceptance.
Hadding Scott: The main factor that has prevented the popularity of fascism, national-socialism, phalangism, among workers in the Anglosphere is propaganda.
I’m a little confused why the Anglos (in England) were against national socialism, as the statement seems to say. Today the British (and Canadians) think themselves so superior by living under such an ‘-ism’. Of course, during the London Riots and mass third world immigration, the are seeing the fruits of national socialist policy. It’s curious how all those formerly white European countries are national socialist, including Norway, Denmark, Russia, and every other country in the ‘Old World’. I can’t imagine how that was accomplished. Looking at the history of all those countries since Antiquity, they never began as ‘national socialist’. I wonder if anyone has written a history on this, explaining just how every little country in Europe and the Netherlands wound up to be national socialist. The US is infected with national socialist ideas also, as the US has its loud advocates for open borders and doling out taxpayer money to them, and in favor of other things, like setting up programs for ‘citizens’, that is young mothers and their 15 fatherless kids, day-care in high schools, and things like this. Couldn’t one say that deep down these are national socialist policies?
@ Hadding Scott – If you say that you want a government that will curtail foreign influence, including immigration, in the country, while maintaining social welfare and effecting jobs programs for full employment, you will find much more acceptance.
That’s a good point you make and I’ll have to try it that way.
The only problem I have is with ‘social welfare’. This leaves out completely the rational of Eugenic concepts. Believe this or not, just a few weeks back I saw a segment on I guess it was CNN, where they had on a black activist against Eugenics (why Eugenics even was a segment is beyond me, as I thought Eugenics was ‘taboo’). To show the viewers how ‘unreasonable’ Eugenics is, they showed a clip of a man (put in nice clothes for the occasion) who actually had a MINUS 58 I.Q. I didn’t even think a MINUS 58 I.Q. existed.
He explained how he was forcibly sterilized many years ago when the US did have sterilization, and how he wished he could have had a family. I couldn’t believe what I was watching.
Though I’ve always felt the role of government should at least include some social welfare programs (the Social Security system is a good thing, or was until the government raided it for money, but the Social Security system by itself should have worked), but I feel there has to be some rationality to social welfare programs. Given today’s insanity of missing ‘baby daddies’ of welfare ‘moms’ with 15 kids, for instance, really needs to be buffered by rationality, and Eugenic methods when needed. What’s alarming is that the U.S., due to Marxist activists (and Liberals), the U.S. is pretty much national socialist already, so any form of rational Fascism is dead on arrival it seems. I simply don’t understand how Marxism and Communism could be this pervasive.
@Hadding Scott: You’re making excuses for failure. The fascists of the 1930s did not need television networks or the Internet. Fascism has failed as a mass movement because it has a track record for people to see. Right-wing dictatorships under the control of the rich have nothing to offer workers. If workers under such a system go out on strike, for example, guess which side is going to get the jackboot in the face.
@Hedgerow: Your whole conception of fascism and the related movements is wrong. Fascism was always a workers’ movement. So was National-Socialism, hence the word Arbeiterpartei.
These modern nationalist movements always catch it from one side for being communistic and from the other side for being capitalistic.
What are you, Hedgerow, a Marxist?
@Bluerose:
Social welfare is necessary under the current circumstances. Social welfare is an essential element of fascism, as are government jobs-programs. The government is responsible to make sure that its citizens are not subjected to inhumane conditions: otherwise people will not be loyal to the government.
Now, there is an argument that this has to be balanced out with precautions against subsidizing the multiplication of the unfit, and in much of the United States that’s where forced sterilization used to come in. It would take a constitutional amendment to bring back forced sterilization now.
Requiring people do some kind of work for their sustenance is also, I am sure, much more popular than simply giving them a dole.
@Hadding Scott: Why should I be forced to be the good race-Samaritan? Goodness and coercion are mutually exclusive concepts. Even non-believers can understand the logic behind the Adam and Eve story.
@Bluerose:The more industrious you are, the more you are penalized under socialism. If slothfulness or indolence are heritable traits, then NS has a bit of explaining to do, even on utilitarian grounds.
Forced sterilization? I guess you’re the guy with the crayon and the tick-list!
@Hadding Scott:
“Fascism was always a workers’ movement.”
The dogs will no longer eat the dog food. Personally, I oppose dictatorship. But if you want something akin to fascism these days, you are not going to get it from a mass movement. You are going to need a military coup followed up by death squads to keep the populace in line. That is the way it is done nowadays.
@Hedgerow: Dogfood? I don’t even know what you’re saying and I don’t think you do either.
@Trenchant: Your libertarianism is basically a formula for throwing away victory in the event that it were ever handed to you.
@Trenchant:
Social welfare has nothing to do with getting a pat on the head from Jesus. It’s a matter of realistic politics.
@Hadding Scott:
LOL. It is just slang meaning something is not saleable.
@Hadding Scott:Check out Pyrrhic victory.
@Hadding Scott: If ethics or morals leave you cold, why does “welfare” excite you?
Only a utopian could believe victory could be ever handed to anyone, anyway. It’s a battle to win hearts and minds.
Well obviously a carbon copy of early 20th century fascism isn’t going to get off the ground quickly, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t lessons to be learned from their successes in a time when internationalist socialism seemed to be riding a high tide of momentum.
@Hadding Scott
Social welfare is necessary under the current circumstances. Social welfare is an essential element of fascism, as are government jobs-programs. The government is responsible to make sure that its citizens are not subjected to inhumane conditions: otherwise people will not be loyal to the government.
Do you mean that Unions and Fascism go hand-in-hand? Just asking. I’m not pro-union, though in some sectors I do see a need for them.
I always thought it’s Capitalism that creates jobs and not governments. But it’s obvious government creates jobs too. So I guess it’s either way.
Government involvement at assuring ‘inhumane conditions’ do not exist (leading to endless cycles of defining what is an ‘inhumane condition’, and then add unions on top of that) leads to a lot of laws and regulations that in many ways become a burden and hindrance to even small private enterprise, especially in the form of having to pay high fees for licenses for every little thing, to a point where some people give up for lack of seeing a profit and an inability to get ahead.
But unions and endless laws and regulations are a part of life, so I’ll just concede that you are probably right about the ‘role of government’ on this.
Now, there is an argument that this has to be balanced out with precautions against subsidizing the multiplication of the unfit, and in much of the United States that’s where forced sterilization used to come in. It would take a constitutional amendment to bring back forced sterilization now.
I suppose you are right, but I always felt the Eugenicists of the early 1900s had it right. In the segment on that white man with the -58 I.Q., the female black activist (if I recall correctly) said the judge at the time who ruled on that case said that ‘several generations of imbeciles being born was enough’ (viewers of that CNN segment were expected to take the ‘high moral ground’ point of view and gasp at the judge’s ruling at the time). Deep down I felt that judge had a point, especially considering that intelligence is considered to be largely an inheritable trait. There’s a whole spectrum of issues involved with a -58 I.Q. person breeding, not just what dressed-up liberal news segments want to portray. Today’s liberal morality seems to say that anyone and everyone should have a ‘right’ to breed, even at the later expense of taxpayers having to support this person or that for whatever reason down the road. Reason is just out the window, and I suppose we just have to live with it (and pay for it).
Requiring people do some kind of work for their sustenance is also, I am sure, much more popular than simply giving them a dole.
Unless I’m wrong, I think this trend only began recently, back when Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of NY, took steps to change the welfare laws of NY by requiring recipients to do some work in exchange for the welfare check. His leading of the way began to catch in other states, countered by resistance of course from the Left. Actually I’m wrong there, as back in the 1960′s people in California applying for food stamps, but who could obviously work, were given food stamps in exchange for a few days of light work at some welfare office or other, or else no food stamps. Today I don’t know if this rule still applies though. Anyway the idea of it seems reasonable enough.
@Hadding Scott:
Your whole conception of fascism and the related movements is wrong. Fascism was always a workers’ movement. So was National-Socialism, hence the word Arbeiterpartei.
Well, this was interesting. I had to look up the word Arbeiterpartei , and it said the Nazi Party.
Now I’m totally confused about the history of national socialist countries and how they got termed as N-S, in just about every country in Europe, the Netherlands, Russia, the ‘Old World’, whatever. Sounds like the term is meant to convey that the concept of the Arbeiterpartei actually won way back then (but followed closely by infiltrations of Marxists and Communists who, as we see today, are derailing and dismantling National Socialism).
@Hadding Scott: It is sad that the reprobate Picasso’s Guernica is today regarded as superior to Franco’s contribution to Spain.
@Hadding Scott:
If fascism is your thing, the Internet is not your friend. It is your enemy. It has been nothing but trouble for dictatorships.
@Bluerose:
Let me say first that I know more about German national-socialism than about Italian fascism, but I am going to assume that the economic policies were essentially the same, because from what I’ve heard they seem to have been.
No, unions per se don’t go hand-in-hand with fascism, but it is a form of nationalism that bases its appeal largely on the melioration of conditions for workers. The larger principle there is the reconciliation of all the classes of society into a harmonious unity, without pretending to erase entirely the fact that there are differences of status.
Governments can certainly create jobs. There are many state-run enterprises in Europe, especially railroads and utilities. But when you have massive unemployment, there is a pressing need to solve that problem, and for that, a government with some creative people can find tasks like reforestation, or an autobahn, or a space-program, to reduce the problem. A last-resort solution of course could be to expand the military. It’s worse for society to let large numbers of people sit idle than to spend the money to employ them on some projects, even if the project itself is not monetarily profitable.
Mussolini said in 1934: “We have solved the problem of production; now we have to solve the problem of distribution.” What it means is that there is more than enough wealth in the society for everybody to live well, but that it is not circulating. (And if that was true of 1930s Italy, it is certainly true of the USA now.) The government can solve that problem by taxing the relatively wealthy and paying unemployed people to do things of some kind of value, like building a more attractive post-office. When the national wealth per se is far from deficient, the fact that some of those projects may not turn a monetary profit is not crucially important. The important thing is to maintain harmony and a reasonable level of comfort in the entire nation, just as a family takes care of even its weakest member.
Arbeiterpartei means workers’ party. The NSDAP was originally called simply the German Workers’ Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) before Adolf Hitler joined and suggested that the term national-socialist (which others had used previously) be prefixed to the name.
@Bluerose: Here are examples of other Arbeiterparteien.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Arbeiterpartei+-nationalsozialistische&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
There are also various groups in the Anglosphere calling themselves “Workers’ Party” which of course would be Arbeiterpartei if translated into German, but they seem to be mostly Marxist and anti-nationalist.
The fascists of the 20s and 30s argued that democracy was actually a mask for plutocracy. In the 50s and 60s that didn’t seem to be the case, but now we seem to be moving back to conditions similar to those of the 30s and the argument becomes compelling once again.
The world “fascist” however is no longer suitable for public consumption-it was permanently discredited by the victory of the Democratic-Bolshevik alliance in 1945. You can see how the pro-Zionist nationalist parties in Europe may have something of a point-they get to openly embrace the fascist in all but name parties that rule Israel.
@icr:
The importance of this kind of consideration depends on what you are trying to do. If you are trying to win the most votes then in the U.S. electoral system it pays not to be too clear. If you are trying to educate people, however, I think it’s important to be unambiguous and not dodge any taboos. Preferably the taboos that stand in the way should be addressed and destroyed.
“Carlists…opposition to the reigning bourgeois, capitalistic liberalism which adhered to the principles of the French Revolution.”
The Revolution’s riff – liberty, fraternity and equality – is antithetical to capitalism, cognizant of men’s innate differences. It should also be obvious that legislating brotherly love is a nonsense. Liberty and equality are mutually exclusive.
@Trenchant:Liberty doesn’t mean a damned thing if you have no resources to do anything.
You are stuck in outmoded concepts, and you are also assuming that I have in mind some concepts that I do not have in mind, and you ignore my explanations.
“Governments can certainly create jobs.”
But not wealth, otherwise taxes would not be necessary! And Europe ain’t doing so well lately, nanny-statism notwithstanding.
@Trenchant: A bridge or a post-office or a railroad is certainly wealth of some sort, and governments have built many of them.
@Trenchant: Furthermore there is such thing as state-owned industries that turn a profit, libertarian mythology notwithstanding.
About the over-rated “Guernica” by over-rated Pablo Picasso read:
http://againstmodernart.blogspot.com/2011/07/guernica-or-suffering-of-horse-indoors.html
@Hedgerow: @Hedgerow: @Hedgerow:
I guess you never heard of Huey Long’s famous quote
“Sure we will have fascism in America, but we will call it democracy”
@Hadding Scott:
On this point at least, I and Kevin MacDonald see eye to eye with you.
Scott Hadding:
“Furthermore there is such thing as state-owned industries that turn a profit, libertarian mythology notwithstanding.”
Nice dodge. Of course there are some state entities that report accounting profits, as they have monopoly over a particular service (think regular mail).
Try not paying your tax, and then we’ll discuss who’s dreaming! Get wealthy building post offices? Now I’ve heard everything.
“A bridge or a post-office or a railroad is certainly wealth of some sort, and governments have built many of them.”
No, it’s a capital good of indeterminate utility offset by the (certainly) diminished wealth of all taxpayers. And yes, governments do like building things.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-08-31-palin-bridge_N.htm
And to address Wattylerevolt’s race replacement point, I find it hard to imagine that things would be quite so dire if the number of viewings of The Culture of Critiquewere an order of magnitude greater than 186 I see here:
http://goo.gl/1Qr42
@Trenchant:
It’s not a dodge. There is a long tradition in Germany of state-owned enterprises operating at a profit, and not just enforced monopolies.
That’s really just icing on the cake though because the important thing is to help people to have an income and not allow their discipline and whatever skills they may have to deteriorate.
If you want categorically to pooh-pooh the value of roads or bridges or post offices or railroads because such a thing is a “capital good of indeterminate utility” then I think you are very much on the fringe. Most people recognize that such things generally have value. The Athenian Acropolis, a collection of government construction projects funded with Athens’ government-owned silver mine, certainly has some kind of value.
Someday you may figure out that your simplistic libertarian worldview only seems valid because you constantly assume whatever is necessary to make it seem valid and deny whatever doesn’t fit.
“There is a long tradition in Germany of state-owned enterprises operating at a profit, and not just enforced monopolies.”
Such as? Name one.
Someone who believes in a NS revival and who regards others as fringe-dwellers. Hard to better that.
@Trenchant: You said: Goodness and coercion are mutually exclusive concepts.
Why would that be true? It occurs to me that you could, in fact, force people to do things that are good for them. Certainly parents force their kids to do things against their will, even teenagers. I don’t necessarily embrace coercion (I almost universally oppose it), but how can we say that it and ‘goodness’ are mutually exclusive? Unless we are talking about some fairly useless airy concept of “good”, it seems to me we can think of people being forced to do things that help them.
@Hadding Scott: I am unclear as to how the leadership of any future fascist system would be selected. Can you explain that? And what kind of powers would the leader or leaders have? For example, would there be elections? Would the leader have unlimited dictatorial power? How would issues of succession handled? You may have explained it before, but if so, I missed it.
@Trenchant:
Deutsche Bahn. Technically a private corporation but the German government is the majority shareholder. Deutsche Bahn even bought a British railroad, Arriva, last year so as to increase its profits.
@kyle: Somehow I don’t think your question is sincere.
@Hadding Scott: No, it is a sincere and a legitimate question: For a government or political system to be stable, some thought should be given to these issues. How would leaders be selected? Where would they come from? Would they (or he) have dictatorial powers? Would they be subject to review or would it be absolute? Could courts override the executive branch? How long would top leaders serve – would they be life terms?
Not looking for details, just thumbnail sketch.
@Okiereddust:
Things didn’t pan out for Huey.
@kyle:
Circumstances and (unanticipated) events tend to determine these things, but with considerable influence from whatever ideas happen to be in the air. I am not going to fantasize about the unforeseeable, but I can say that we have a better prospect in any event if we get our people thinking the right thoughts.
@Hadding Scott: Would you consider some of the Asian countries today to have something close to fascist regimes? I am thinking of China, Taiwan or South Korea. Would Japan be a type of soft fascism?
My concern is that if the power just goes to the “strongest man” it tends to let people shoot their way to power and leads to instability. I am also worried about unchecked power for long periods of time in the hands of a few people. Not just because they may be corrupt, but even if good, they may suffer from groupthink and become detached from the needs of the people. Also, one sole leader can go mad and do tremendous damage. How is he to be removed? Through a legal process? A court? Some guys with guns? Or does everyone just suffer under a tyrant?
On this level I don’t think it is just fantasizing. The events that bring it about fascism, which could be an economic collapse is totally unforeseeable, but the ideal system once it is up and running needs to be fleshed out. Who would have power, how it is exercised and how they are opposed if necessary seem central to a good working theory.
@kyle: As I understand Japan more or less practices national-socialism.
You worry about how a fascist government would be chosen, but do you weigh that against how governments are chosen under the current system? There is no foolproof way.
As I said, the key thing is to get our people thinking the right thoughts. Then other things will tend to work themselves out as circumstances develop.
@Hadding Scott: Oh I agree that much of what takes place in America and Western Europe is a rigged system. Japan seems to be a fairly agreeable model. I suspect that any system will have to be compatible with whatever country it is in – obviously.
Some groups seem much more naturally willing to accept authoritarian systems than others. Perhaps that is as it should be. You have to have a system that is natural to the people that it governs.
@kyle: Fascism and national-socialism on the one hand, and authoritarianism on the other, are really different matters. It is a residue of Jewish propaganda that reduces fascism & n-s to authoritarianism.
Any government dealing with a crisis is going to tend to become authoritarian, no matter what it calls itself ideologically. Even presidents of the United States become authoritarian when there seems to be a compelling need. The Romans invented the temporary office of dictator specifically because of that.
@kyle: Don’t hassle Hadding Scott, just do a little homework on the National Socialist government of Saddam Hussein. Workers’ paradise. Or Perón in Argentina, or the juntas that followed. It’s all good for the guys in jackboots.
Deutsche Bahn operates in a monopoly regime, unless you believe that you can just up and build roads without asking permission of the government. When you are the sole provider of a particular service with the power to exclude rivals, of course you can earn economic rents. The IRS and the Fed turn in handy profits, in case that escaped you.
Krugmanomics dressed up in lederhosen, that’s what it boils down to.
@Jason Speaks: Well yes, you’re right about children, but then no Western legal code accords them the rights of adults. Nor the mentally infirm, I should add.
@Hadding Scott: “Then other things will tend to work themselves out as circumstances develop.”
Pure ad hockery!
@Trenchant: Deutsche Bahn is not the only mode of mass-transit in Germany, and certainly not in Britain either. People are not required to use Deutsche Bahn in Germany, and certainly not required to use DB’s newly acquired subsidiary Arriva in the UK. It’s a state-owned enterprise that makes a profit. Sorry if that’s inconvenient for your ideology.
@Hadding Scott: Again, nice dodge. Of course people can use bicycle, train, fly or whatever, but that it is irrelevant to the monopoly control over roads exercised by the state.
Try building a turnpike yourself without state permission and let me know your success.
“But when you have massive unemployment, there is a pressing need to solve that problem, and for that, a government with some creative people can find tasks like reforestation, or an autobahn, or a space-program, to reduce the problem. A last-resort solution of course could be to expand the military. ”
Great, a few jobs for rocket scientists for our billions, some trees, and all the grunts ready for the war on Iran. We’ll surely be rolling in it shortly.
” Fascism and national-socialism on the one hand, and authoritarianism on the other, are really different matters. It is a residue of Jewish propaganda that reduces fascism & n-s to authoritarianism. ”
Sure, the internment camps where Jews and other enemies of the state ended up were Club Med vacations.
It’d be nice to hear a NS explanation as to why unemployment comes about in the first instance, now we’ve heard about the remedies. I mean there is money out there, and workers willing, how could unemployment possibly eventuate?
@Trenchant:
Ah, okay. So you would oppose any measures that would actually separate us from our corruptors and parasites.
@Trenchant:
These days it’s primarily the consequence of the free-market ideology that you promote.
@Trenchant:
You keep accusing me of dodging, and with no cause that I can see. Arriva is a railroad in Britain that is majority-owned by a foreign state, Germany. The German government does not enforce any monopolies in Britain. Whether Deutsche Bahn will make Arriva profitable remains to be seen, but they certain expect to make it profitable.
You are implying that government-owned railroads are somehow inherently profitable, but why isn’t Amtrak profitable? I’ll tell you why: it’s because the United States government doesn’t try to make it profitable. Amtrak probably would be profitable if the U.S. postal service had been required to the government’s own railway instead of an unnecessary fleet of trucks.
Not all governments do things as stupidly as the United States government, and there is no reason to generalize about the inefficiency of government enterprises based on such an example. I am aftaid that this is the malfunction in your thinking: a limited frame of reference combined with a false presumption of omniscience.
@Trenchant:
Actually this initial claim, which I have been refuting, is so ridiculous as almost not to require any addressing at all. Does a government-owned factory create no wealth? Of course it does! A fine example would be the SEAT car-company established by Franco’s government, recently bought by Volkswagen.
And by the way, as Gottfried Feder pointed out in his Manifest zur Brechung der Zinsknechtschaft, which I am currently translating, the Bavarian government in the early 20th century got enough revenue from its state-owned enterprises that it could indeed do away with taxes, if it didn’t have to pay interest on the public debt. So, even in spite of yourself, you have stumbled into the truth: with profitable state-owned industries, taxes could be abolished.
Maybe Dr. Bernanke can pass on his “profit-making” skills to some of the NS acolytes.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobmcteer/2012/01/11/fed-profits/
@Hadding Scott: Oops, it looks like someone forgot from whence the money originated to set up the car factory. On a net basis, taxpayers’ loss outweighs car-maker’s/road-maker’s/state sponsored enterprise’s “profits”.
@Hadding Scott: So it’s not Club Med and is authoritarian/dictatorial. No, I’m not into dictators, even Gentile ones.
Here’s an example that should make clear where the NS model is flawed. Trenchant gets rolled by a mugger as he walks home. The mugger uses part of Trenchant’s money to set up a small business, and part he spends on himself. Wealth is created!
No, because we don’t know what Trenchant would have done with his money (forget about morals here, a sore point for NS). Maybe as Trenchant had the money and the mugger didn’t, it’s he not the mugger who’s the best at creating wealth.
@Hadding Scott:
The Soviets should have engaged you to run their economy, they were idiots.
“Bavarian government in the early 20th century got enough revenue from its state-owned enterprises that it could indeed do away with taxes, if it didn’t have to pay interest on the public debt.”
I could give up working if I didn’t have to pay the mortgage, too.
@Trenchant:
Government declares what is and is not money. Government creates money.
The government gives its workers these pieces of paper called currency that represent how much work they gave to the government. In turn the workers trade their pieces of paper for products of an equivalent amount of labor differently employed. Nobody was robbed.
Fiat currencies are not necessarily always destroyed by inflation as you libertoons want to believe. The Reichsmark was very stable.
@Trenchant:
Only the cancellation of interest was mentioned.
@Trenchant: Government salt and tobacco monopolies used to be very “profitable”, too, in parts of Europe. Nice if you’re receiving, not paying, the monopoly rents.
“@Trenchant: how could unemployment possibly eventuate?
S.H:These days it’s primarily the consequence of the free-market ideology that you promote.”
The Federal Register alone is nudging one hundred thousand pages. Where is this mythical free market today? I can’t see it.
@Trenchant: Strawmen to infinity, and you don’t take no for an answer. I hope that you make it into your Libertarian Heaven and the Libertarian Jesus gives you a nice pat on the head and an all-day sucker.
fiat:
“an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, especially by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.”
Get it? Like it or lump it.
Ditto for taxes: the net effect is the same as if I were robbed. There is no bargaining involved. No opt-out.
The same Reichsmark that lasted some twenty plus years?
@Trenchant: Get used to the real world. Otherwise you are going to continue to be a liability for other people.
@Hadding Scott: When I ask for your help, you can accuse me of hypocrisy. Remember it’s the socialists who depend on others’ resources. Learn some basic economics, and you’ll be streets ahead of Hitler, who at least was honest enough to admit his disinterest in same.
There are plenty of beer-halls to re-run history, if that be your thing. You don’t need me to act out that drama.
Thousand Year Reich…yeah, dreamers, gotta love ‘em.
@Hadding Scott:
Hadding, looks like you’re still trying to spin your National Socialist Worldview opposite ways on the authoritarianism question 1)not necessarily and 2)Maybe so, but so what? I can’t think of any NAer I’ve met who would say that the fuhrerprinzip was a residue of Jewish propaganda. It is au contraire an essential substitute to unify a movement without a core ideology (the efforts of you and your quotes of Alfred Rosenberg in writings like “Total State” with his typically disingenuous
style to the contrary.
@Okiereddust:
In the first place, how in hell does it make any difference what some “NAer” would say? The National Alliance was never a national-socialist organization. I don’t think that many of them that I knew even had any deep understanding of what Dr. Pierce was trying to convey, much less national-socialism.
Fascism and national-socialism are not synonyms for dictatorship. That’s a simple and obvious fact. There have been many dictators that were neither fascist nor national-socialist.
On the other hand, Lew Rockwell says that most of the countries of the world are “fascist,” even the ones like the USA that have elected governments. Inadvertently, he indicates that there is some substance to fascism other than dictatorship. Who am I to argue with the great Libertarian, Lew Rockwell?
In theory, forcible relocation of a non-White population (e.g. the Cherokee Nation) would not necessarily require fascism or national-socialism or dictatorship. President Van Buren was able to do it, but a president strictly adhering to Libertarian principles could never do it.
Your claim that there was no “core ideology” in national-socialism is just ridiculous. I’ve been presenting that core ideology is for some years now. If you are just going to dismiss it by calling it disingenuous then there’s no point in talking to you. You have your mind made up.
@Hadding Scott:”but a president strictly adhering to Libertarian principles could never do it.”
The central axiom is that of non-aggression. Taxation is coercive, ergo no president can be a strict libertarian. Von Buren was one of my favourite presidents, nonetheless, and saved America from unnecessary warring.
Rockwell is right (though he should grow a pair and point out who it is wearing the jackboots), we live in an authoritarian, corporativist state, even if a sense of Volk is denied us from cradle to grave.