Revisiting the 19th-Century Russian Pogroms, Part 1: Russia’s Jewish Question

Andrew Joyce


The anti-Jewish riots, or “pogroms” of late 19th-century Russia represent one of the most decisive periods in modern Jewish, if not world, history. Most obviously, the riots had demographic implications for western countries – around 80% of today’s western Diaspora Jews are descendants of those Jews who left Russia and its environs during the period 1880–1910. But perhaps the most lasting legacy of the period was the enhancement of Jewish “national self-awareness,” and the accelerated development of “modern, international Jewish politics.”[1]

The pogroms themselves have consistently been portrayed by (mainly Jewish) historians as “irrational manifestations of hatred against Jews,”[2] where peasant mobs were the unwitting dupes of malevolent Russian officials. Other explanations are so lacking in evidence, and so devoid of logic that they stretch credulity to breaking point. For example, University of British Columbia Professor, Donald G. Dutton has asserted that the mobs were not motivated by “the sudden rapid increase of the Jewish urban population, the extraordinary economic success of Russian Jews, or the involvement of Jews in Russian revolutionary politics” but rather by the “blood libel.”[3]

Little or no historiography has been dedicated to peeling back the layers of “refugee” stories to uncover what really happened in the Russian Empire in the years before and during the riots. This lack of historical enquiry can be attributed at least in part to a great reluctance on the part of Jewish historians to investigate the pogroms in any manner beyond the merely superficial. In addition, historical enquiry by non-Jewish historians into the subject has been openly discouraged. For example, when Ukrainian historians discovered evidence proving that contemporary media reports of Jewish casualties in that nation were exaggerated, the Jewish genealogy website ‘JewishGen,’ responded by stating: “We believe that [these facts] are more than irrelevant because it redirects public attention from the major topic: the genocidal essence of pogroms.”

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It should suffice to state here that this response contravenes the very essence of historical enquiry – to uncover history as it actually happened, irrespective of the uncomfortable truths which may lie therein. The statement could be translated as “Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good story.” Also, as this paper will show, the tendency to portray the riots as “genocidal” is completely lacking in foundation. University of California Los Angeles Professor of Sociology, Michael Mann, has provided substantial evidence indicating that “most perpetrators did not conceive of removing Jews altogether.”[4]

JewishGen’s allusion to genocide should also be seen as part of a broader problem in modern Jewish historiography. Rather than seeing the pogroms as products of specific local circumstances, in which Jews would play at least an implicit role, there has been a tendency to use them for comparative purposes. John Klier states that when used in a comparative sense, “examples are drawn almost exclusively from the 20th century, and these events are then read back into the earlier period of 1881–2,” making any objective historical enquiry difficult, and implying the presence of some non-existent ‘pan-European’ malaise in anti-Jewish actions.

Nonetheless, this series of essays will seek to peel back the myths, to tease a few threads of truth from the veil which covers these events. Encouragingly, some work has already begun in this respect. I.M. Aronson’s assertion that the pogroms were “planned or encouraged to one degree or another, by elements within the government itself,”[5] has been dealt a death blow in recent years through the concerted work of a small number of non-Jewish historians, mostly notably, University College London’s Professor of Hebrew and Jewish Studies, John Doyle Klier. In his 2005 work, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881–2, Klier asserts that “contemporary research has dispelled the myth that Russian officials were responsible for instigating, permitting, or approving the pogroms.”[6]

This series of essays will attempt to move further, adhering to the belief that the facts of the events remain paramount to historical enquiry rather than being a ‘distracting’ irrelevance. The series will begin with an explanation of the origins of Russia’s “Jewish Question.” Subsequent articles will concern the pogroms themselves and how myth and exaggeration have plagued our conception of them. Finally, I will examine why these myths were developed, and the broader implications of the prevalence of myth in Jewish ‘history.’

Part One: Russia’s Jewish Question.

In 1772 the Russian Empire orchestrated the first partition of Poland, “erasing from the geopolitical map of Europe a large kingdom, which in the seventeenth century had extended over broad areas between Prussia and southern Ukraine.”[7] Significantly, in doing so, the Russian Empire also oversaw “the dissolution of the largest Jewish collective in the world.”[8] Polish Jewry was divided into three parts – those in Posen came under the sovereignty of Prussia, those in Galicia came under the sovereignty of Austria, and those in Poland proper came under the sovereignty of the Russian Empire.[9]  In Poland proper, the Polish public turned in on itself, searching frantically for the reasons for the ruin of the nation, and in doing so, states Israel Friedlander, “the Jewish problem could not but force itself on its attention.”[10]

Investigations carried out by special committees discovered that in the decades prior to partition, Polish Jewry had enjoyed a demographic explosion, with Jews now representing almost 20% of the entire population. In addition, it was discovered that Jews controlled a full 75% of Polish exports, and that many were now spilling out of over-populated urban centres into the countryside, making a living by monopolising the sale of liquor to peasants.[11] By 1774, complaints were reaching Russian officials from non-Jewish merchants who argued that Jewish ethnic networking was propping up the monopoly of exports, and that this monopoly would shortly have dire implications for the consumer.[12] These revelations were the key motivating factors in the decision to expel Warsaw’s Jews in 1775, and until the early 19th century there was a kind of stand-off between Poles and Jews.[13] Napoleon’s establishment of the Duchy of Warsaw in 1807 did little to alter the situation, as Napoleon acceded to local sentiment which held that Jews should not feel the benefit of the new constitution until they had “eradicated their peculiar characteristics.”[14] In 1813, the government of the Duchy moved to break the Jewish monopoly on liquor, banning all Jews from selling alcohol in the villages, bringing an end to the activity of “tens of thousands” of Jewish liquor merchants in the provinces. Not surprisingly, when the Duchy was dissolved in 1815 following Napoleon’s failed attempt to invade Russia, Polish Jewry shed no tears.

In late 1815, the Congress of Vienna was held. The aim of the congress was to give its assent to the formation of a new autonomous Polish kingdom under the sovereignty of Russia. Although the bulk of Polish Jewry remained within the newly established kingdom, tens of thousands also poured forth into other areas of the Russian Empire, ushering in an uncomfortable age of fraught Russian-Jewish relations. The immediate reaction of the Russian government to the acquisition of such large, and unwanted, Jewish populations was to prevent the penetration of these populations from intrusion into the old Russian territories, and the solution reached was one of containment. A new kind of settlement was created in provinces along the western frontier,            and it became known as the “Pale of Settlement.” Although a large amount of negative connotations have been attributed to the Pale, it was not an impermeable fortress. Certain Jews were permitted to reside outside these provinces, they could visit trade fairs, and Jews were even permitted to study at Russian universities provided they did not exceed quotas. By 1860, more than half of world Jewry resided in the Pale.

Following the Congress of Vienna, wherever Jews resided in the Russian Empire, they overwhelmingly “served in a variety of middleman roles.” In some cities, “the Jewish mercantile element was numerically superior to the Christian,” and there was a gradual move towards the reacquisition of the liquor trade.[15] According to Klier, by 1830 Belorussian Jews were found to be “totally dominating trade” in that country.[16] It was largely Klier’s work in the late 1980s which began to truly shed light on the origins of Russian-Jewish relations prior to 1914. Klier, born into a Catholic family in Kansas, “rejected what might be called the Fiddler on the Roof pieties and simplifications. In book after book, he emphasised that what the tsars and their ministers wanted, above all else, was for the Jewish settlements to be orderly and productive.”[17] Klier further stressed that the much-maligned Pale of Settlement was simply the only response that the Russian administration could come up with, faced as they were with the “baffling question” of how to deal with the “fanaticism of ultra-Orthodox Jewry” which was thoroughly “unassimilable to official purposes.”[18]

In 1841, investigations were carried out into Russia’s Jewish communities, and the subsequent reports pointed to three significant problems. The first was persistent Jewish difference in dress, language, and religious and communal organization. The idea underpinning this aloofness from non-Jewish society, the ‘Chosen’ status of the Jews and an accompanying ethnic chauvinism, was said to be particularly harmful to Jewish-Gentile relations, particularly when it was reinforced through “a system of male education that was thought to inculcate anti-Christian interpretations of the Talmud.”[19] The second, related, problem was that Jewish economic practices were also rooted in this aloofness. The Talmud “encouraged and justified unreserved economic exploitation based on cheating and exploiting the non-Jews,”[20] in a validation of Max Weber’s theory of ‘internal’ and ‘external’ ethics, whereby “members of a cohesive social unit observe different moral standards among themselves compared with those observed in relation to strangers.”[21] The third aspect of the Russian ‘Jewish Question,’ was the issue of Jewish loyalty. The Jews of the Russian Empire had evidently retained the kahal of pre-partition Polish Jewry. The kahal was a formal system of Jewish communal leadership and government, entirely separate from the Russian state. Although tacitly tolerated by the state for its tax collection capabilities, Jewish loyalty to the kahal was absolute, going beyond the merely fiscal. Almost all Jews continued to resort to Jewish courts.

John Klier states that following these revelations, “state and society shared a consensus that Jews could be – and must be – reformed and transformed into good subjects of the realm.”[22] Under Emperor Alexander I (1801–25) there had been attempts to encourage Jews to pursue more productive economic activities. Generous concessions were made to Jews in the hope that they would abandon their middleman roles, as well as the distilleries and taverns of the provinces, and take up work in agricultural colonies. Klier states that the “embeddedness of the Jews in the economic and social life of the imperial borderlands ensured that despite legislative initiatives, Jewish economic life remained largely unchanged.”[23]

In 1844, under Nicholas I, the Russian government began a program of reforms and legislation designed to break down Jewish exclusivity and incorporate the nation’s Jews more fully into Russian society. Not surprisingly, the government first took aim at the kahal, banning it as “an illegal underground structure.”[24] The significance of the banning of the kahal went beyond tackling the issue of Jewish loyalty. The mutual assistance offered by the kahal was felt to have had economic implications – “it was the mutual support provided by the kahal that ensured that Jews were more than a match for any competitor, even the arch-exploiter of the Russian village, the kulak.”[25] The civil rights of any “Jews who were perceived to be engaged in productive undertakings” were extended, though there were few takers. Nicholas I even conceived of, and supported, the establishment of state-financed Jewish schools, in the hope that such establishments would lead to the development of a more progressive and integrative Russian Jewry. Unfortunately for Nicholas, what his system produced was a cadre of Jewish intellectuals profoundly hostile to the state.

Emperor Alexander II continued the efforts of Mother Russia to gather in her Jews. He abolished serfdom in 1861. He relaxed efforts to change the economic profile of Russian Jewry, extending the rights of educated Jews and large-scale merchants. His was a program aimed at reconciliation, an abandonment of the stick in favour of the carrot. Education was made fully open to Jews, and Jews could sit on the juries of Russian courts. Conditions on settlement and mobility in the Pale were relaxed further. Klier states that “Jews even became the subject of sympathetic concern for the leaders of public opinion. Proposals for the complete emancipation of the Jews were widely mooted in the press.”[26]

These measures, however, were also accompanied by a growing uneasiness with the way the Jews of Russia took advantage of them. There was little in the way of gratitude, and the measures did not bring about the great changes that had been hoped for. The nationalist revolt of the Poles in 1863, and the fact that a large number of wealthy Jews were found to have funded some of the rebels cast new doubts on Jewish loyalty. Having emancipated the peasantry and adopted a paternalistic concern for the former serfs, the government also viewed with alarm the rapidity with which the “Jews were exploiting the unsophisticated and ignorant rural inhabitants, reducing them to a Jewish serfdom.”[27] It also quickly became apparent that despite new military legislation, Jews were noticeable in their overwhelming avoidance of military service. In retaliation, the government clamped down on rural tavern ownership, and introduced more stringent recruitment procedures specifically for Jews. It has been claimed that Jews were also banned from land ownership at this time, but Klier provides evidence that Jews were still able to buy any peasant properties sold at auction for tax arrears, as well as any property within the Pale not owned by Russian gentry.[28]

By the end of Alexander II’s reign, disillusionment with the government’s policy at handling the Jewish Question was widespread. The vast majority of Jews had stubbornly persisted in the unproductive trades, continued in their antipathy to Russian culture, and refused to make any meaningful contribution to Russian society. An air of resignation swept the country. Some newspapers even advocated abolishing the Pale, if only to alleviate that region from bearing the burden of the Jews alone. Other papers opposed this “fearing for the welfare of the peasantry at a time when the cultural level of the peasantry made them an easy target for exploitation.”[29] Meanwhile Jews were beginning to swamp higher education establishments. In Odessa, there were reports that in school after school, Jews were “driving Christians from the school benches,” and “filling up the schools.”[30]

On the eve of the assassination of Alexander II, Russia’s Jewish Question remained unanswered. Decades of legislation had done little to change the nature of Russian Jewry, which remained ethnically, politically, and culturally homogenous. The new Jewish intelligentsia had turned on the hand that fed it, failing to encourage the adaptation of their fellow Jews, moving instead to defend them and advocate for their interests. In terms of educational and social opportunities, Jews had been given an inch and taken a mile. They had swamped the schools, and added to a group of emergent Jewish capitalists. In 1879 Russian authorities were being lobbied by a Rabbinic Commission for full emancipation, an ominous prospect for those concerned about the well-being of Russian peasantry.

The breaking point, when it came, did not emerge from the ether, but from this historical background. In part two we will examine the more immediate origins of the anti-Jewish riots and how the riots proceeded. We will do away with petty distractions, dispelling myths with facts; and as we venture into the Pale, we now do so with a more complete view of the Jew we find there.

 Go to Part 2.



[1] John Klier, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881-2, (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2011) p.xiii.

[2] Jack Glazier, Dispersing the Ghetto: The Relocation of Jewish Immigrants Across America (New York: Cornell University Press, 1998)  p.9.

[3] Donald Dutton, The Psychology of Genocide, Massacres and Extreme Violence (New York: Prager, 2007 ) p.40

[4] Michael Mann, The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005) p.142.

[5] I.M. Aronson, ‘Geographical and Socioeconomic factors in the 1881 Anti-Jewish Pogroms in Russia,’ Russian Review, Vol.39, No.1 (Jan. 1980) p.18.

[6] Klier, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881-2, p.xiv.

[7] Israel Bartal, The Jews of Eastern Europe: 1772-1881, (Tel Aviv, Ministry of Defence, 2005) p.23.

[8] Ibid, p.24.

[9] Israel Friedlander, The Jews of Russia and Poland, (New York: G.P. Putnam, 1915), p.84.

[10] Ibid.

[11] Ibid, p.85.

[12] Simon Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, (Bergenfield: Avontayu, 2000), p.173

[13] Ibid.

[14] Ibid, p.87.

[15] Simon Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, (Bergenfield: Avontayu, 2000), p.173

[16] John Klier, Pogroms: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History, (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004) p.4.

[17] http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2007/oct/26/guardianobituaries.obituaries

[18] http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2007/oct/26/guardianobituaries.obituaries

[19] Klier, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881-2, p.3.

[20] Ibid.

[21] Jacob Katz, Exclusiveness and Tolerance: Jewish-Gentile Relations in Medieval and Modern Times (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1962) p.56.

[22] Ibid.

[23] Klier, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881-2, p.4

[24] Ibid.

[25] Ibid.

[26] Klier, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881-2, p.5

[27] Klier, Russians, Jews, and the Pogroms of 1881-2, p.5

[28] Ibid.

[29] Ibid, p.6

[30] Ibid.

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137 Comments to "Revisiting the 19th-Century Russian Pogroms, Part 1: Russia’s Jewish Question"

  1. May 27, 2012 - 2:55 am | Permalink

    I guess from what have read by these articles is that you cannot trust the Jews in their writings about history, especially history about themselves. If one Jew was hurt or killed the figure turns to thousands or millions. If one Jew was in the American internment camps of the Japanese and he died the stories of gas chambers would had surfaced. As I read these articles I saw in what the Jews did with a variety of the immigrants, mostly illegal, to our country of America. They seemed to have learned a lot from the Jews. It’s incredible how history is repeating itself in America, not for the Jewish invasion because that has been total, but by the immigrant invasion using the tried and used methods of their Jewish handlers. I couldn’t help but see the comparisons. Lastly, the Jews really are the Biblical Anti-Christ.
    Nothing has changed in two thousand years since Jesus said their house had become “desolate” in Mat 23:38.

    They have fulfilled the Biblical edits where they would be a “by-word” amongst the nations.
    Psa 44:14 You make us a byword among the nations, a shaking of the head among the peoples.

  2. May 11, 2012 - 6:46 pm | Permalink

    “Let’s not let the facts get in the way of a good story.”

    Sounds like liberalism in a nutshell. That’s what happens to any ideology or movement taken over by Jews.

  3. Vladimir's Gravatar Vladimir
    May 11, 2012 - 5:59 pm | Permalink

    @Razvan:

    One possible reason may be that it is true. If you are looking for a more politically correct forum, I could suggest a couple to you:

    http://www.adl.org
    http://www.splcenter.org

  4. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 11, 2012 - 12:35 pm | Permalink

    Hail to all the good people of this Earth, also begging for forgiveness for being somewhat offtopic and exotic grammarwise.

  5. Anonymous's Gravatar Anonymous
    May 11, 2012 - 12:15 pm | Permalink

    @Bear:

    The whole Slavic / German / Nazi thing has to be treated with great caution by us.

    In what way specifically Bear?

  6. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 11:17 am | Permalink

    @Villax:
    OK Villax it was nice to talk to you. Wish you a nice day.

  7. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 11, 2012 - 10:08 am | Permalink

    @Razvan

    Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. – Well, I hope not.

  8. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 9:42 am | Permalink

    @Villax:
    Even the cuisine is important and motive of rebellion. Of course they are important but none that important to hate each other like the jews are trying to determine us. Right?

    We can respect each other and build that camaraderie.

    OK, watch a handball game between Romanian and Hungarian teams. Do you really see any difference regarding the phenotype? Because I can’t.
    We hate each others for external and mostly false motives and racial foreigners are invading us altogether. This is what I supposed white nationalism should solve. Not to create another intra-European war on behalf others.

  9. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 11, 2012 - 9:20 am | Permalink

    Switzerland is pretty, and they said enuf is enuf when the muslim wanted overdecorate their urban landscapes. Tastes and languages are important. Mind you, if the white civilisations linqua franca remain the latin with even wider currency than it actually held, probably Hungarians and Romanians could become best buddies and all smiles. Another missed opportunity. BTW don’t distrust the white elites too vehemently.

  10. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 7:57 am | Permalink

    My name has no arab origin so it’s not Razwan. It’s an old Romanian name and it is Razvan maybe related with Radovan or Radu.
    OK, enough of that.

    Switzerland is a beautiful country; fortunately for them distant and protected enough to become a country for the rich men to protect their valuables.
    Our countries are not that distant and not that protected from the epicenter of all wars. And also someone needs to work hard so that those valuables to be created. Also they were not bombing each other at the first Rothschild suggestion. And didn’t try to ethnically dislodge the other.

    Now it is the moment to understand that at this historical box round we will disappear together, or we will survive together. No matter our architectural tastes or how many angels are dancing on a pin and if there are any angels at all and the like. We are, as you can see for yourself, the playing ground of two confronting Empires who will play us one against the other – as always. They only need to start a fire. As always the imperial elites will ally with the jews.

  11. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 11, 2012 - 7:30 am | Permalink

    @Razwan
    What should you do? I suggested some whispering, especially as you seem to agree somewhat. But please don’t suppose that I am not bothered by other baaadly out of place architectural and other monstruosities in our once so beautiful Europe. I am actually envy the Swiss a lot for their quiet courage.

  12. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 6:48 am | Permalink

    @Villax:
    Probably you mean an orthodox priest. May I ask about what conquered land are you talking about?

    Regarding your eyesores consult your optician not me.
    If that community wants its architectural monstrosity what should I do? Start a war because you prefer Gothic instead of Byzantine? Why don’t bring in the big cannons for demolitions as your ancestors did in 1848?

    Indeed, I do prefer the old Moldavian style (especially the broken arch in the older ones) instead of the Byzantine style. But what can I do about that? I really told that to a few priests. But they like it this way and that’s it.

    Now we have a serious problem because a dirty mayor is trying to build a mosque in Bucharest.
    I also observe that the mosque in Budapest on Bela Bartok 29 seems to not bother you at all. Nor that on Fehérvári 41.
    And that would be an eyesore but that’s not important, isn’t it?

  13. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 11, 2012 - 5:02 am | Permalink

    @ Razvan
    Fine. Let’s stick with the word – convoluted. And if and when you may have the ear of an orthodox pope – whisper him that the frantic bulding of their chuches on the conqered land is an eyesore. I mean architecturally. Agree?

  14. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 4:25 am | Permalink

    @Villax:
    I had no intention to be “clever”. I want to tell the truth. Do you?

    The Austro-Hungarian stats show that the Hungarians were multiplying fast while the Schwabes and Romanians didn’t (as an example). Especially due to denationalization. Check with me what Magyar means. Is this what you offer to me? I need to be loyal to the Hungarian state, I need to forget what and who I am and what blood I have. So that you can feel not punished?

    In fact, I believe that we probably have the same blood only we speak different languages and we are loyal to different things due to a convoluted history. But let’s try not to impose our loyalties to each other. Maybe we would be able to see who the enemy is and what we can do about that.

  15. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 11, 2012 - 3:28 am | Permalink

    What I said is that the treaty was gross, the all to usual vae victis affair badly poisoning the region. On the other hand you gave a lick to Germany, a kick to Hungary. How clever..
    All in all, under Hungarian rule minorities multiplied for centuries, under the new rulers Hungarians look more & more like endangered species. Statistically. I wonder why. So stop twisting this sad story.

  16. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 11, 2012 - 2:34 am | Permalink

    @Anonymous: “The word pogram signifies “facts” that you apparently take issue with. In using “pogrom,” you therefore tend to undermine your own thesis from within. Find an English word that best captures the facts as you have discovered them. ” Too hasty friend. Part Three is concerned with the Jewish victim paradigm and the role of the victim lexicon in this. Pogrom in itself has come to mean more than the original translation of the word, but the reader immediately knows what I am referring to when I refer to Russian pogroms. In the long term, this is not acceptable to the thesis, as you say, but I preferred to gradually move along, providing deeper understanding with each step. You should enjoy part 3. Regards.

  17. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 11, 2012 - 2:24 am | Permalink

    Anonymous – that very question (word use) is the major focus of Part Three. All in good time friend.
    Vladimir – Brilliant!

  18. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 1:44 am | Permalink

    @Villax:
    No I am not. So in your opinion three times more millions of other people should have been left to the mercy of the people like you? Why don’t you check the Austr-Hungarian stats for yourself and stop feeling “punished”?

  19. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 11, 2012 - 1:32 am | Permalink

    “Comments that include personal insults, epithets, or profanity may be censored. Comments that promote or suggest illegal activities will be censored.”

    Why naming other people country “NO 1 neo-con whore” has become acceptable and under the radar of “may be censored”?

  20. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 11, 2012 - 12:55 am | Permalink

    @Trenchant: Yeah, well, I’ve been saying for years to anyone who’ll listen (seldom more than one, often fewer than) that the adjective “feudal” ought to be understood as praise, not a sneer.

  21. Trenchant's Gravatar Trenchant
    May 10, 2012 - 11:12 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon: Worth archiving for the next spat is this piece:
    http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/lights162.htm

  22. TabuLa Raza's Gravatar TabuLa Raza
    May 10, 2012 - 11:09 pm | Permalink

    Around 1914 the Federal Department of Education (yes, they had one then) asked: do the schools exist for the students, or do the students exist for the schools? The answer is the latter.

    The cognoscenti of socialism openly stated that the people were for the state and not the other way around. Many admitted that the true purpose of socialism is to enslave the masses.

  23. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 10, 2012 - 11:03 pm | Permalink

    @Trenchant: Thanks for the umpteenth Zeit, Trenchant. But Nowicki is way too optimistic, I think!

  24. Bear's Gravatar Bear
    May 10, 2012 - 10:51 pm | Permalink

    The whole Slavic / German / Nazi thing has to be treated with great caution by us. The fractures around this area can easily be exploited by the enemies of Whites, if we let them.

  25. Trenchant's Gravatar Trenchant
    May 10, 2012 - 10:32 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:Andy Nowicki’s “Zeitgeist-lapdog” is one to add to your lexicon. It’s not germane to this one, but the other, more appropriate threads have been deep-sixed.
    http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/nowicki_contracept.htm

  26. Trenchant's Gravatar Trenchant
    May 10, 2012 - 10:24 pm | Permalink

    @Sanjay:On point #2, I’d extend that dramatically. The on-going delusion – widely held, and powerfully supported by public schooling and other propaganda – that the State is a benefactor to its subjects plays into Jewish hands. Until the State’s divinity is challenged there is little chance of a change in agenda.

  27. Villax's Gravatar Villax
    May 10, 2012 - 8:40 pm | Permalink

    @Razvan
    Ain’t you a manic Hungarian basher – with a presumably bad, bad conscience? That “peace” mutilating Old Hungary and leaving millions of Hungarians at the mercy of people like you, was made with the intent to poison the region. Just peace it wasn’t.

  28. Brad's Gravatar Brad
    May 10, 2012 - 6:37 pm | Permalink

    @Anonymous:

    “The anti-Jewish riots, or “pogroms” of late 19th-century Russia represent one of the most decisive periods in modern Jewish, if not world, history. Most obviously, the riots had demographic implications for western countries.”

    Why not call them “uprisings”, or “rebellions” instead?

    Would “Farmers’ Rebellions” work?

  29. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 10, 2012 - 6:10 pm | Permalink

    @John Rennick:

    You make excellent point. Discovering the problem only goes so far.

    But next, you need action. And WN have failed miserably. Once they discovered that the Jew is the problem, they did not work quietly under the radar to defeat Jewish power.

    These WN could have done the following things:

    1. Climb Human energy pyramid: Be a tenured Professor (ex: KMac), Banker, doctor, Lawyer (to fight affirmative action, forced integration), Filmmaker (Gibson), Sports Star (ex:Tebow), Entrepreneur (ex: Henry Ford), Pastor (Coughlin), Congressman (Ron Paul), Senator (Rand Paul), FBI/CIA/Special forces agent (Bo Gritz).

    But no, they sit around whine like old women.

    2. Attack the Jewish power structure: Federal Reserve, Church propaganda for Israel etc.

    The problem with WN is sloth, not awareness.

  30. Franklin Ryckaert's Gravatar Franklin Ryckaert
    May 10, 2012 - 4:44 pm | Permalink

    @Anonymous:
    My proposal for an alternative term for pogrom is : “intifada”, that approaches the real situation.

  31. Anonymous's Gravatar Anonymous
    May 10, 2012 - 4:37 pm | Permalink

    We will do away with petty distractions, dispelling myths with facts

    If you believe that this subject is riddled with myths and distractions, I suggest you do away with the word “pogrom” from your discourse and choose your own word. The word pogram signifies “facts” that you apparently take issue with. In using “pogrom,” you therefore tend to undermine your own thesis from within. Find an English word that best captures the facts as you have discovered them.

  32. Anonymous's Gravatar Anonymous
    May 10, 2012 - 3:54 pm | Permalink

    The anti-Jewish riots, or “pogroms” of late 19th-century Russia represent one of the most decisive periods in modern Jewish, if not world, history. Most obviously, the riots had demographic implications for western countries

    Why not call them “uprisings”, or “rebellions”?

    the riots had demographic implications for western countries – around 80% of today’s western Diaspora Jews are descendants of those Jews who left Russia and its environs during the period 1880–1910.

    I thought the 1880-1910 migration was motivated by a desire to benefit from the better economic opportunities in the United States.

  33. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 10, 2012 - 3:54 pm | Permalink

    @buckle: If only Jones’s quoted remarks were half as sound as your own! As he so frequently has elsewhere, he here allows his desire to entertain as well as instruct and his delight in overstatement, misdirection, and irrelevant embellishment (to wit, virtually everything he writes in the first quoted paragraph) to obscure the near profundity of the point he wishes to draw the reader’s attention to (the matter of his second paragraph). Furthermore, I can’t help wondering whether other readers who look to entertainers, not social critics, when they want to be entertained are as regularly irritated by his stuff as I have been for twenty years and more.

    Best for last, however. Your own analysis is both eloquent and almost painfully to the point. I thank you and congratulate you for it. (To take one reflection it has prompted of several I could cite, it pains me deeply that the admittedly snide characterization of psychiatry and the social sciences as pseudosciences has largely perished from the face of the earth. If anyone on this planet needs to don a hair shirt and learn a little humility, it’s the social science soror/fraternity.) Indeed, you leave me wondering whether in conscience I have any business commenting here at all. Time perhaps for me to withdraw and think carefully.

    Postscriptively, as I wrote much earlier, I, like you, look forward to the next installment of Andrew Joyce’s article.

  34. John Rennick's Gravatar John Rennick
    May 10, 2012 - 3:29 pm | Permalink

    Jason Speaks: “I wish TOO ran more stories on topics like our White ancestors overcoming adversity (like the pioneers and settlers), rather than yet another story about Jews being embroiled in some conflict somewhere…”

    Consider the expertise of this site’s owner: Jews.

    That’s what he knows and so that’s what he and his contributors mostly dish up. If, on the other hand, this was Mark Weber’s site, most of the articles would deal with WWII history, told with a pro-Nazi slant. And so forth…

    In short, this site is essentially another “name the Jew” outlet. But since the Jew has been “named” approximately 1,00,000,000,000,000,000x to the 10th power it bears saying (again) that “naming the Jew” is a failed tactic.

    You see, once the Jew has been “named”, the logical next step is eliminating the problem. How? By initiating one of these solutions:

    1 – Ask the Jews to stop doing what they’re doing.

    2 – Failing that, ask the Jews to voluntarily vacate the United States.

    3 – Failing that, forcibly round them up and deport them to Israel or Madagascar or (fill in the blank)

    4 – And failing all of the above – kill them.

    These are all the possible solutions and yet no one has organized themselves for executing any of these. Why? Because they are incapable of doing so. And that is why every WN site is stuck in the groove of a broken record that spins round and round “naming the Jew”.

    It’s why the WN movement is a failure.

  35. buckle's Gravatar buckle
    May 10, 2012 - 3:01 pm | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:

    Andrew this debate is stuck in a blind alley!

    The atheists have a fair point in so much as this site is supposed to be about race. It is an attempt (with some scientific mumbo jumbo provided by our intrepid hero KM) to preserve the white race based on objective scientific fact. It is open to legitimate question however, as to how much of the proposed theories are based on the material sciences? Surely our blog master has enough Aristotle to know that if what is being proposed contains no physics, chemistry, astronomy or microbiology than these so called scientific realities will remain open to refutation? KM (as much as we love him) is no scientist from what I can see and like many contributors on here has no qualification in a material science.

    One of the atheists on a preious thread, stuck in a cul-de-sac with one of God squad, posed the question: who decides amongst you Christians which is the best code after the religious revolution – catholics or protestants? The obvious counter is, OK you atheists, which of the white races will come out on top after your, ahem, “scientific” revolution? The English, Italians, Germans, French, “Americans”, Russians? To that list we can now add the Poles of course.

    This latest impasse exposes the limitations of a race based solution. As the son of white immigrants in the land of my birth, I’ve always sensed that there is something arbitrary about race even foolish. For that reason and, as a member of the God squad I draw consolation from this taken from an article by Dr Michael E. Jones:

    At this point, if we were all French or Austrian or English or Russian, I would utter a stirring call for the return of the Bourbons or the Habsburgs or the Stuarts or the Romanovs to the throne. But since we’re all Americans, I can’t do that. We have no common past. We have no royal family waiting in the wings. We have no established religion which can act as a source of order and identity. We have no racial identity. We have no common DNA. I am almost tempted to say that we have no we. We are a nation of nations, and that is all we have ever been.

    All we have is various ethnic traditions and communities—Sam Francis’s South, my ethnic neighborhoods—united by the frail bonds of Logos as perceived by a human soul so beset by human passion. Even if our souls are weak, however, Logos is not. Logos is the glue that holds the universe together, and so it is strong enough to unite us as Americans whether it be the higher Logos which acknowledges Christ as Lord of the universe or the lower Logos which honors him by seeing this order in the works creation or in the moral law. We are the party of Logos, and it is only as such that we can think of surviving much less prevailing over our enemies.

    Thank you for your article and I look forward to part two.

  36. Vladimir's Gravatar Vladimir
    May 10, 2012 - 1:58 pm | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:

    Dear Andrew Joyce,

    In order to avoid about fifty unnecessary comments under your next article, may I suggest a beginning for it which would pay due respect to the role of the glorious Polish nation in history:

    “Oh Polska, the great and mighty! The one and only that did NOT cease to exist twice in history due exclusively to the arrogant stupidity of its rulers. The one that did NOT take part in the partition of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and desperately tried to conspire with Germany to attack Russia, but cried “Oy vey” when the same thing happened to her the following year. The one that did NOT expect to resist German tanks while riding on horseback. The one that did NOT attempt to hide behind Britain and France and refused to even negotiate with Germany. The one that was NOT run over by the Germans in a shorter period of time than it took them to cross a street in Stalingrad. Finally, the one that is NOT number one whore of the neoconservatives in Europe now.”

  37. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 10:49 am | Permalink

    @Alice Teller: Sincere thanks for this message. It is a pity how it turned out. I extended a hand of conciliation and friendship to GREZCM very early in this exchange, even though I knew his statements and arguments to be false. I try not to patronize anyone. Unfortunately, he seemed to be out to make an enemy of me. I seek no enemies, least of all among the readers of this site, and I still bear not one ill feeling towards him. It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. Had GREZCM produced evidence or scholarship to make his points, I would have gladly bowed to it, and thanked him for the correction. But he did not, ultimately because his points were groundless. Still, there is no shame in this. I earnestly urge him to continue with the series. And finally, I am confident enough in myself to extend an apology to GREZCM for any offence I may have caused him in relation to his country, or him personally. None was intended. But understand this, I do not take kindly to a supposed member of my own people attempting to undermine the truth and validity of my work, which is, above all else, geared towards their enlightenment and well-being.

  38. Alice Teller's Gravatar Alice Teller
    May 10, 2012 - 10:34 am | Permalink

    Off topic and on a lighter note, check out the new commentator on race in America:

  39. Bear's Gravatar Bear
    May 10, 2012 - 9:50 am | Permalink

    Proff McDonald made a point in a 2005 article on vdare
    “Stalin’s Willing Executioners”?

    “Slezkine supposes that Jews and other Mercurians performed economic tasks deemed inappropriate for the natives for religious reasons. But this is only part of the story. Often these were situations where the natives were simply comparatively less ruthless in exploiting their fellows, which put them at a competitive disadvantage. This was especially the case in Eastern Europe, where conducive economic arrangements, such as tax farming, estate management, and monopolies on retail liquor distribution, lasted far longer than in the West.

    Slezkine also ignores the extent to which Jewish competition may have suppressed — arguably sometimes reversed — the formation of a native middle class in Eastern Europe. He seems instead to simply assume the locals lacked the abilities required.

    But the fact is that in most of Western Europe Jews were expelled in the Middle Ages. And, as a result, when modernization occurred, it was accomplished with an indigenous middle class. Perhaps the Christian taxpayers of England made a good investment in their own future when they agreed to pay King Edward I a massive tax of £116,346 in return for expelling 2000 Jews in 1290. If, as in Eastern Europe, Jews had won the economic competition in most of these professions, there might not have been a non-Jewish middle class in England. ”

    It’s wort reading in conjunction with Joyces article.

    Frederick the Great of Prussia ostensibly anexed his half of Poland to his empire because it had allowed passage of a Russian army to attack Prussia, fairly intollerable for a King. He was not at all impressed with the state of economic development he found. I want to know why.

    The poles, despite their status as victims have emerged as the great assimilator and victors and ther may be something to learn. The old Prussians (a non slavik non germanic peoples) who inhabited much of the coastal regions have disappeared. They also were unaffected by assimilation attempts unlike for instance Irish, Welsh and Scotts.

  40. Truth Torch's Gravatar Truth Torch
    May 10, 2012 - 8:52 am | Permalink

    @mari: Mari , this is fascinating view .Especially if Russian Jewry knew that international Jewish money was gaming the European Aristocracy against each other in petty territorial status war ‘games’ .

  41. Truth Torch's Gravatar Truth Torch
    May 10, 2012 - 8:47 am | Permalink

    @mari: And who had probably built a mercenary army from the peasantry with which to threaten the so called Aristocrazy .
    Sort of reminds one of how Mossad roams the USA with impunity ready to assassinate any Goyem dumb enough not to lick boot on the critical questions .
    The land of the brave and the home of the free is very very far from there .

  42. blue rose's Gravatar blue rose
    May 10, 2012 - 8:44 am | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    Is this argument still going on?

    Give the man a chance to write his series. Let’s just read and see what he has to say? Make yourself a nice cup of herbal tea with a little honey. Sit back as we all watch:

    The Magnificent Mazowsze

    Let’s just be grateful these wonderful ethnic dances are still being shown. Not to worry — we all love Poland! Glorious Poland!

  43. Alice Teller's Gravatar Alice Teller
    May 10, 2012 - 8:30 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    No reasonable person could follow this exchange without concluding that there is more than a tad of truth in all stereotypes and ethnic jokes.

    Personally, I thank you for the first edition of the series and look forward to reading the rest. I regret that this comments thread has been hijacked when it could have provided more insight for those of us who know very little about this area of the world or its history.

    I admire your ability to maintain a light tone and sense of humor when under attack. Warm regards.

    Alice

  44. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 6:41 am | Permalink

    @GREZCM: “Now, Mr. Joyce, with your abusive language, you disqualify yourself from publishing anything here.”
    *sigh* join me friend, as we take a stroll down memory lane, courtesy of our good friend (and impeccable scholar) GREZCM:
    “You need to greatly improve, Mr. Author ”
    “This, however, does not furnish you with a license to write falsehoods, or logical and historical untruths. ”
    “I have notice your clumsy technique, which is mixing material once published with reality.”
    “be advised to limit yourself to writing on unverifiable history”
    “had author Joice been a student of history introducing a paper like above column, his professor would have written the text all over in red demanding clarifications, deletions, etc.. ”
    “In Poland, a 15 y.o. schoolchild would have gotten at best a G for such paper. This is the whole story. ”

    “Even professor MacDonald once determined that Poles are not fools :).” No, just one of them.

  45. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 6:30 am | Permalink

    GREZCM – This is one of the reasons I write:
    Tom: “This little history by Andrew Joyce looks like a good compliment to Solzhenitsyn’s “200 Years Together”.”
    Bear: “These are going to be a very important series of articles; I am excited about reading them.”
    Blue Rose: “Thank you Andrew Joyce. A fascinating article.”
    Pat Hannagan: “Great essay Mr Joyce! I am looking forward to your next installment.”
    Jett Rucker: “Andrew Joyce, keep writing.”

  46. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 6:14 am | Permalink

    GREZCM: “I don’t deny this!” Gods! Are we getting somewhere man? And what of the Congress of Vienna – were you AWARE of this historiographical issue? If not, why base much of your objections to my article on something you are not sure of? If you were, again, why dispute something you know to be true? Why accuse me of “misleading” readers about the Congress? If you do not like the style of my writing so be it. I have a bad haircut too! But the vast majority of readers seem to have had no issue with the way it has been written. All remaining entries in this series are already written and await publication. I don’t believe there is further reference to Poland – give them a chance friend. I use an incredibly broad range of sources, some of which are quite new. There is an opportunity for learning and discussion here. We can debate scholarship, writing style etc, but accusing my work of being filled with lies and falsehood is simply untrue and quite ungenerous.

  47. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 10, 2012 - 6:11 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    re Congress of Viena
    I don’t deny that the so called “Polish question” was difficult for the gathered powers. I’m glad to say that it, indeed, was! It was present in great politics throughout the whole 19th century. Our occupiers preferred to solve the problem, instead of abandoning it altogether, meaning leaving Poland for her own solutions.

  48. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 6:07 am | Permalink

    @GREZCM: I “say” nothing. I put a great deal more faith in a vast collection of peer-reviewed publications, relying on archival evidence, citing their own respective sources, and spanning almost one hundred years, than the incoherent ramblings of a pseudo-Polish internet troll. Yes. I can intellectually joust with you forever and a day old chap. But you really must improve your lines of argument. This “all publications cannot be trusted” line of yours seems a tad paranoid, and makes you appear even less reasonable, even more erratic, and just a little bit less intelligent.

  49. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 10, 2012 - 5:57 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    What are you trying to say, Mr. Joyce? That Poland “proper” was once the Crown within Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? I don’t deny this!
    You cite many printed material – in what way the contents of cited books prove anything beyond the fact, that the printed books contain texts cited by you? In what way the fact of publishing the books prove truthfulness of their contents?

  50. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 5:52 am | Permalink

    GREZCM states: “Re Congress of Vienna: please post here your sources, which indicate, that the meeting of then most powerful states in Europe were mostly preoccupied with “Polish question”. The Congress of Vienna was preoccupied with only one matter: which changes in Europe, introduced by Napoleon to accept, which to reject.”
    Please see the below:
    “The Polish problem became the central test, even as it constituted the central crisis of the Vienna Congress.” Harold Nicholson, The Congress of Vienna, (1946) p.148
    “The three-way split was reminiscent of the partition of Poland but Russian was now much more the dominant partner. It had been the most controversial area during the Congress..” Tim Chapman, The Congress of Vienna: Origins, Processes and Results, (1998), p.43
    “Poland was the grand difficulty of the Congress.” Edinburgh Review, Vol. 85, p.264
    I could go on and on and on. GREZCM seems to think himself and intellectual titan, but really he seems a gnat. Perhaps you should move from Poland to Peru old chap, you can easily get to grips with their history, right?

  51. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 10, 2012 - 5:37 am | Permalink

    GREZCM states: “Poland proper, whatever “proper” indicates”. Fascinating that such an avowed scholar, and dedicated Polish super-nationalist-patriot should be so ignorant of a term which positively saturates histories of his beloved nation! G for you old boy! Just give me some time, and I shall knock your other objections on the head you ignoramus!
    “We were now in a territory called Poland Proper, that is, in that part which, after the other provinces had been wrested away and attached to the dominions of the collosal powers around, until the revolution and conquest of 1830 had retained the cherished name of the kingdom of Poland.” John Lloyd Stephens, Incidents of travel in Turkey, Russia, and Poland, (1855), p.197.
    “Its two main parts were Poland proper, usually referred to as “the Crown” -to which the Ukraine had been transferred on the eve of the Union of Lublin – and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.” Piotr Stefan Wanycz, The United States and Poland, (Harvard 1980) p.14
    “In the course of time they became, both in Lithuania and in Poland proper, governors of whole regions.” Simon Dubnow, History of the Jews in Russia and Poland, (2000) p.24
    “But in Poland proper, in the Poland of 1815, the bondsman and the lord belonged to the same race.” Robert S. Littell, The Living Age, Volume 45, (1855) p.201
    “During this time it comprised the kingdom of Poland proper, made up of Cracovia and Silesia, Cuyavia and Masovia…”Alexander Hopkins MacDonnald, The Encyclopedia Americana, Volume 22 (1945), p.287
    “…believing that any further recognition of this Paris Committee would weaken the cause of the Allies in Poland proper…”John Dewey, The Middle Works 1899-1924, (2008)p.284
    “…comprising the grater portion of what is called Poland proper…” James Fletcher, The History of Poland: From the Earliest Times to the Present Times, (1831) p.5
    “As for Poland proper, it had once, under the Piast dynasty, ruled over Silesia, which in the seventeenth century was under the Crown of Bohemia. From medieval times a clear distinction was made between Great Poland, with its primatial city of Gniezno, and Little Poland, with the royal capital, Cracow, whic remained the scene of coronation and secondary capital even after 1611 when Warsaw became the primary capital.” George Williams, The Polish Brethren, Volume 1, (1980) p.2
    “This kingdom included, apart from Poland proper (‘The Krown’) also Lithuania, Byelorussia…”Noel Currer-Briggs, Worldwide Family History, (1982) p.105
    “a transnational norm was admitted, 12000 for Poland proper…” William Reddaway, The Cambridge History of Poland, Vol.1 p.159
    “…and were permeating Poland proper with a burgher class…” Charles William Previte-Orton, Outlines of Medieval History, (1965), p.497
    “Unlike Poland proper, relatively few petty nobles could establish themselves, and vast estates became characteristic.” Daniel Stone, The Polish-Lithuanian State, (2001),p 146
    “In Poland proper, the Szchlacta was fiercely opposed to the magnates…”Robert Bain, Slavonic Europe: A Political History of Poland and Russia (1962) p.90
    “For the purpose of promoting Russification in Poland proper, the committee of administration in Warsaw resolved upon the following measures…”Appletons Encyclopedia of Important Events, Volume 6 (1867), p.682
    “The other survivors emigrated into Lithuania, Poland proper, and to the Western European countries…” Lucy Dawidowicz, Jewish Life and Thought in Eastern Europe, (1996), p.10
    “…In Russian Poland proper, and among the Poles of the neighbouring Russian territories…”Geroid Robinson, Rural Russia under the Old Regimes (1960), p.85

  52. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 10, 2012 - 4:57 am | Permalink

    @Bear: @Bear:
    “Post WW1 the desire to punish and reduce Germany (and Hungary) meant the more lunar and unreasonable desires of some ……”
    Why do you attach Hungary in this equation? After the Austro-Hungarian maps and stats the Hungarian were a minority in Hungary, having a privileged statute against all the the other “minorities” in Hungary.

    It was not a desire to punish Hungary but the desire to get rid of the Hungarian imperialistic rule. Germany lost territories with a German majority which was not the case of Hungary. It was not a treaty but the will of liberated peoples.

    Germans wanted an all German state, while Hungary wanted its pocket Empire back, and privileges for Hungarians against everybody else. Great difference here!

    See, these kind of affirmations and innuendos are not “white-nationalist”, just inflaming propaganda.

    This “elliptic” style inflamed GREZCM. For an American the partition of Poland or the Congress of Wien might be a subject of study – not that important in the given framework. For him is the thought of Russian Imperial armies killing civilians in Warsaw using the artillery. How would you react instead of him?

    Once again, this is not a solid base for the white-nationalists and it is of bad omen. Until we will not understand the necessity that every people should live in its ancestral land, to respect and be respected by its neighbors it will not be peace. And the Jew will always thrive on that.

    Don’t lie yourself that events like the WWI were solely due to the jewish intrigues. It was also the profound injustice made by such congresses and the imperial mentality (not yet fully comprehended in my humble opinion).

    Here is where I think the jewish power really lies. Beyond the money power it is his capability to use one people against the other and cashing on it – while they liquidate each other.

  53. Bobby's Gravatar Bobby
    May 10, 2012 - 4:22 am | Permalink

    @Jason Speaks: I agree Jason. That is forever the point I try to make on forums like this. The bravery, sacrifice, hard work, tears, blood, and sweat that European-Americans underwent in creating this nation is being negated, dissed, downgraded, and even mischaracterized as something else, in the universities, media, and even government on an ongoing neverending manner, each and every day. When a peoples history is erased, they to a great degree are erased. My considered opinion.

  54. Jason Speaks's Gravatar Jason Speaks
    May 10, 2012 - 4:14 am | Permalink

    @Bobby:

    That’s a good point, I was using the word conquest a bit unadvisedly there. Most of it was settlement activity. And huge swaths of the land were sparsely populated anyway.

    I wish TOO ran more stories on topics like our White ancestors overcoming adversity (like the pioneers and settlers), rather than yet another story about Jews being embroiled in some conflict somewhere, but it’s not my site!

  55. Jason Speaks's Gravatar Jason Speaks
    May 10, 2012 - 3:55 am | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:

    Oh well, their assertion that they have a right to exist and that we are somehow on the hook to enforce that right, is ludicrous. How many nations have existed that are no longer here? Thousands? No, I don’t mean to say that their claim of some unique rights, as compared to other nations, are valid. They are not.

    But, I don’t think there is anything intrinsically wrong with them or any other nation trying to make a go of it. It’s not my problem if they succeed or fail, and I don’t have any particular desire to see the state of Israel ended. Why would I want that? I don’t have a problem with Jews trying to have a homeland somewhere (I would say the same about any group). But I don’t owe them anything. That is, to be blunt, their problem, not mine.

    I would like to see, of course, and end to the manipulation of the US (and White countries) on behalf of Israel, including an end to foreign aid and military support. Now, if the Israelis manage to conquer land around them, on their own, over the coming decades, and it didn’t involve any US blood or treasure, then so be it. Or, if a couple of Arab countries managed to force them out and take Israeli land, again, so be it. Or more correctly, I should say, we should generally pursue what is in our self-interest. If something like “stability” (an agreement to new borders, etc.) could be achieved in the region that came at little or no cost to us, perhaps that would be the best course of action. If we had our own statesmen, who were not bought and paid for, we might have some such suggestion that is legitimate.

    I just mean, I’m not committed to ending the state of Israel on principle.

    As regards the conquest of the West, how on earth could White men develop the land and take possession of it, without pacifying it first? And there couldn’t have been anything unique about the wars and conflicts that erupted between White men and the Amerindians that hadn’t happened for thousands of years beforehand. Why wouldn’t we take North America?

  56. Bobby's Gravatar Bobby
    May 10, 2012 - 3:46 am | Permalink

    @Jason Speaks: I don’t know if framing the “settlement” of the west, by European-Americans as a “conquering” is accurate. Now I will agree with it being brave, on the part of the European settlers, since many more Euroepeans than is admitted were killed quite viciously by the Indian tribes. To characterize the settlement of the American continent as a conquering, is grist for the communist/leftists mills. Instead, what is more accurate is that an overwhelming number of people of a different culture, a more advanced culture technologically speaking, began to relentlessly occupy the American continent. The more that came, the more the government could justify using force against the Indians and making way for the settlers. It’s not that much different in this modern time, where the government is now allowing illegal immigration numbering in the millions, including LEGAL immigration numbering in the millions. The more Mexicans/hispanics, for example, occupy an area, the more the less power the existing population has, as can be seen by Spanish signs in every store, government office, and large companies paperwork. Also, the more rights, tax money and influence Mexicans, hispanics get, over the objections of the previous demographic.(European-Americans) In short, it’s a numbers game, or to put it the usual way it’s put on these forums, DEMOGRAPHICS IS DESTINY. Period!!

  57. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 10, 2012 - 3:14 am | Permalink

    @Bear: One of those wars saved a starving and demoralized Germany from a frontal assault by an enormous Bolshevik army. The Germans knew who saved them, and they were grateful. We honor the Germans when we are polite enough to make their gratitude to Pilsudski and his Poles our own.

  58. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 10, 2012 - 3:00 am | Permalink

    @Jason Speaks: Israel’s existence undermines our society and every other Western society simply by virtue of the fact that its demand of a guarantee that it has the right to exist has been acceded to by those very societies. I see that claim as being absolutely guaranteed with Western arms and lives. Do you believe that I am wrong, my friend?

    Israel’s status is utterly unprecedented. No other nation-state in the history of the world has been accorded the right to exist. Everyone and everything else—individual, community, nation—rolls the dice and takes its chances every single day. Israel exists, as I have said before (and not I alone), not as a nation like the USA or Switzerland or Nigeria or Fiji. Its distinctive status corresponds with its role as a storefront for the very international Jewry that we agree oppresses this country and every white Christian country in the world. Israel’s squabbles with its neighbors may not interest you, but I am quite surprised that you find it possible to separate Israel and its existence from the core of the Jewish problem, here and in Europe and Australia, that threatens us with permanent serfdom or slavery.

    As for the conquest of the American West, we will simply have to disagree. I devoted some thirty months to studying little else between 2005 and 2007, and so I stand by my earlier statement on this topic.

  59. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 10, 2012 - 1:52 am | Permalink

    @Bear:

    To speak of anything called “Poland Proper” is somewhat impossible

    In a way, this is true, especially in 1918, when the country re-emerged. At that time, any neighboring country would have said, that Poland should be a hundred miles away, or only a hundred kilometers. :)

  60. Anty ep's Gravatar Anty ep
    May 9, 2012 - 11:30 pm | Permalink

    For fifty years they have been drooling over the power the Jews gleaned from the war and trying to figure out how to get a slice of the pie.

    Other than tourist bus after bus to Ozwiecem, it hasn’t quite worked out too well.

    And then Karol wojtyla makes the whole world rub it’s eyes in disbelief at his lickspittle “apology”.

    I know a lot of great Polish-American folks but I can’t talk politics with them or even suffer to hear it much at all. The only other group that loves to bash endlessly Germans and Russians besides the Jews. One might be tempted to think they often have that “can’t beat em, join em” slogan in mind nowadays where Jews are concerned.

  61. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 9, 2012 - 10:50 pm | Permalink

    @Trenchant:

    Paul movement knows that central banking and jewish control are the center of Jewish power. Once this power is broken the jewish matrix is no longer invincible.

    Jew can destroy you in no time because he controls your mind by TV. But TV takes lot of resources and federal reserve gives them.

    In fact the Jew ferociously resists any effort to deny him the power to control money, and therein lies the awesome source of jewish power.

    Foolish Whites sit in front of TV like zombie and they are programmed by the Jew for 3-4 hr every day.

    And then we wonder why Whites are not waking up. That is the name of the game.

  62. Bear's Gravatar Bear
    May 9, 2012 - 10:32 pm | Permalink

    To speak of anything called “Poland Proper” is somewhat impossible. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was made up of Germans/Austrians, Silesians, Hungarians and Ukranians (Galacians) etc. Yes there was a kernal that could be described as Poland. Post WW1 the desire to punish and reduce Germany (and Hungary) meant the more lunar and unreasonable desires of some Polish nationlists, some even based on fraudulent maps, were given way too much sway. The country had wars with ALL of its neighbours in 1919/20 which tells you where it was at.

    There is as someone said good nationalism and bad. We had the same thing with Czechoslovkia in which the German portions and Slovakian portions were not granted Cantonic (Swiss style Localist democracy)

  63. Trenchant's Gravatar Trenchant
    May 9, 2012 - 9:46 pm | Permalink

    @Sanjay: As an easy to understand primer on sound money, Ron Paul’s Gold, Peace and Prosperity is as good as any.
    http://is.gd/jQWeOb

  64. Sean's Gravatar Sean
    May 9, 2012 - 9:26 pm | Permalink

    I’m glad I read down all the way to the end of the thread before I commented. First, I’d like to say I’m eagerly awaiting the second installment of the article, since this is a period of history where my knowledge is fairly lacking.

    @GREZCM, your taking exception at perceived slights towards your nation is understandable, but as that was clearly not Mr. Joyce’s intent, I’ll only say that a less confrontational opening, in my judgement, would have better conveyed your point, and avoided a few comments worth of unpleasantness.

  65. arthurdecco's Gravatar arthurdecco
    May 9, 2012 - 9:06 pm | Permalink

    I was in the process of copying a post I had typed in the comments window after spending an hour composing my thanks to GREZCM for his contributions to the thread – contributions that led us into surprisingly informative directions, when my comments just disappeared, leaving only the link to his comments!

    Wot’s wit zat?!?

  66. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 9, 2012 - 8:47 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM: “Every sane person of both nations should advance brotherhood.”

    Very well said, GREZCM. Prosit! Na zdrowie!

  67. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 8:19 pm | Permalink

    @European:
    Yes, you should definitely try German state archives.

    The war was pure madness, unbelievable disaster.
    This may come as surprise to some, but Poles both like and respect Germans. How sad, the nations have harmed each other so much, very sad. Every sane person of both nations should advance brotherhood. If we don’t revere our neighbors, who is left?

  68. European's Gravatar European
    May 9, 2012 - 8:02 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:
    Thank you GREZCM, my father was born there, and he could not return to his home town after WWII, and we don’t know what happend to the rest of his family. I’ll try the German route.
    In addition I like to say, one of my best and dearest friends, while I returned and lived in Germany for a few years, was a Polish Lady. I will never forget her. So I have no animosity against the polish people, also as some of my ancestors seem to have polish names coming from Prussia, but ended up in Germany after the war.
    I like to hear ALL points of views. I know that Americans see History slightly different in studies here (book knowledge), then those in the land who they study. No offense to anyone please. It has been my experience as it is GREZCM’s. I do understand his frustrations, as he is out-numbert by american posters.

  69. Jason Speaks's Gravatar Jason Speaks
    May 9, 2012 - 7:38 pm | Permalink

    @Vlad Writes:

    I really do not understand how the jews can guilt trip Americans. We saved their sorry arses from Adolph in ww2;

    Interesting point, I think we should examine more fully. First, from everything I have heard, the US and England did not tell their populations they were going to war to save Jews. It would have had almost zero propaganda impact. In the minds of Americans, we went to war to avenge Pearl Harbor and to fight against German Militarism, especially as it impacted England.

    I believe this is what motivated the vast majority of Americans. And the Jews know that. To be blunt, they know perfectly well we weren’t going to war to “save them” in the public mind. If in fact they manipulated the US into war, this would just reinforce how dangerously gullible (and unpredictable) Whites are.

    Second, this presumes that Jews needed saving. Now, by the time the war broke out, I would say the ethnic conflicts in Europe were putting Jews in danger (as well as tens of millions of Whites), and that many did die, but how does that jive with the claim by some that there was no deadly persecution of Jews under Hitler? And can a person both deny “the Holocaust” and claim credit for ending it at the same time?

    This isn’t directed at you Vlad, I’m just thinking out loud about things I’ve read on this blog and certain posts I’ve made myself. My contradictions bother me – when I notice them!

  70. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 7:27 pm | Permalink

    @Tycho:
    What distracting diatribes, or any dishonesty on my side?!
    I’m most angry that this respectful site has published such a poor column.
    I have read possibly all essays posted here within the last two years. I very rarely post a comment, for many reasons. There are linguistic limitations, and meritorious ones. However, this text made me very angry, due to its low quality, so I have written. So hard to understand?!

  71. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 9, 2012 - 7:26 pm | Permalink

    @Vlad Writes:

    Hitler was right about the Jewish bacilli. At that time there was no info on viruses.

    Jew does not believe in gratitude or reciprocation. Jew only believes in exploiting others to achieve his ends.

    Jews are like viruses in White body. If the virus wins the body dies.

  72. Vlad Writes's Gravatar Vlad Writes
    May 9, 2012 - 7:15 pm | Permalink

    I really do not understand how the jews can guilt trip Americans. We saved their sorry arses from Adolph in ww2; you would think we would get appreciation and not parasitism.
    Obitiuary prediction from the future, 2350 in America:
    Moshe Goldstein was born in poverty and overcame discrimination against jews to win numerous awards and get rich, donated so much to charity he nearly saved a thousand lives by himself, and traces his lineage to 11409 different relatives who were killed in the holocaust, and 1345 more who were affected by the pogroms.

    It will be the same old story even then, I predict.

  73. Jason Speaks's Gravatar Jason Speaks
    May 9, 2012 - 6:51 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:

    That’s interesting, because the drive by Israelis to take over neighboring land bothers me the least. I don’t particularly care about their squabbles with their neighbors, I just don’t like Jews undermining my society.

    I can’t agree that the people who conquered the West are under some moral suspicion. It was a heroic endeavor in my book.

  74. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 6:42 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:

    Of course, who “in the West” would bother for the East European peculiarities.
    There is also much to say about mistreatment of Ukrainians, by the Poles. A telling example here. Both, Poles and Ukrainians know well of a local warlord Jarema Wiśniowiecki, fighting on the “Polish” side during the Chmielnicki Upraising. Jarema was lionized by Polish writer, Henryk Sienkiewicz – Noble laureate for literature of 1905. Little is propagandized about Jarema’s family. Especially, no one points out that Jarema only in adult age converted to Catholicism, contrary to his very mother’s curse! His family had been local warlords of the Orthodox faith.
    This, however, didn’t prevent portraying him as a rabid Pole.
    Like all one-percenters, he cared most for his own business.

  75. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 9, 2012 - 6:19 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM: I agree completely with your clarifications. I had not intended, by the way, to suggest that difficulties between Poles and Lithuanians were of very long standing, and I regret that my comments failed to make that clear. When Woodrow Wilson and the Triple Entente’s striped-pants set, with full Judaic support for their egomania and presumption, redrew the map of Europe and brought hardship thereby to untold millions of people, as much harm was done to us now living as was done to the millions of young men slaughtered in the Great War itself.

  76. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 9, 2012 - 6:09 pm | Permalink

    @Jason Speaks: It reeks of pharisaism, of an entitlement by blood and/or genetic superiority, that has a parallel in the Jews’ disgusting claim of a perpetual divine mandate for their rule of Eretz Israel and their concomitant right to expect that the goyim will enforce, with the sacrifice of their lives if need be, their unprecedented claim of a right to “exist”.

    The conquest of the American West is a fact of history. Sordidness and nobility both played leading roles in its realization. As with most other such facts of the sausage-making genre, the greater one’s knowledge of the contents, the less appetizing the end product comes to seem. Thus, it’s not merely those who want to give the country back to the Indians who will reasonably resent being required to pretend that God or Darwin willed things to be just so and not otherwise.

    Incidentally, that the term manifest destiny itself was coined by a newspaperman ought to put one on his guard, too, don’t you think?

  77. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 6:07 pm | Permalink

    @European:
    Yes, Opole was once Oppeln in Prussian/German Upper Silesia.
    No wonder, the the city has no archives – legacy of the devastating war. You will get more reliable information from present German archives, than from municipal ones.

  78. Tycho's Gravatar Tycho
    May 9, 2012 - 6:06 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM

    “(I don’t bother to investigate in detail).”

    No, evidently, you most definitely do not.

    You mention that yourself and Andrew Joyce will be judged by the reader… well I can say that I look forward to further illuminating essays by Joyce and I would prefer if you stop going on with your obnoxious attention-getting, not to mention DISTRACTING, diatribes about things that are totally beyond the scope of the essay and this discussion.

    O.R.I.O.N.

  79. Bobby's Gravatar Bobby
    May 9, 2012 - 6:02 pm | Permalink

    P.S. Mari, where evading the draft was concerned, doesn’t it demonstrate in one sense, the stupidness of the Goyim, in allowing themselves to be kicked around by militaristic governments?(let the reader understand) Just a thought.

  80. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 6:00 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:
    Very fair language. I almost totally agree.
    Three remarks here.
    1. Polish-German animosity was defined only in 19th century, as simplification for Polish-Prussian animosity. Never in recorded history, Poland had no quarrels with Saxony, Bavaria or other heartland Germanic entities or tribes. Moreover, Poland was most hospitable land for overpopulated heartland Germany. The whole trouble was in very successful, expansionist Prussia.
    2. I would like to point out, that your assumption of hostile Polish-Lithuanian relations is inexact. The hostility emerged only after WW1. Since roughly the beginning of 16th century Poland and Lithuania were united and merged thoroughly over 300 years afterwards. Most notably, the Lithuanian nobility got thoroughly Polonized. They became proud Poles. To illustrate the matter, one can point out that Piłsudski was a “Lithuanian”. Adam Mickiewicz, most prominent Polish poet was a “Lithuanian” as well, as well as Juliusz Słowacki. Mickiewicz’s opus magnum (“Pan Tadeusz”) opens with the words: “Litwo, Ojczyzno moja, Ty jesteś jak zdrowie” written in Polish, which may be translated as “O, Lithuania, my fatherland, thou are like health”. Generally it was a conundrum, what to do with thoroughly Polonized Lithuania after WW1.

  81. Bobby's Gravatar Bobby
    May 9, 2012 - 5:57 pm | Permalink

    @mari: MARI, your information is breathtaking in its comprehensivness. I once actually had an instructor that said this, before hate crimes legislation and political correctness.

  82. Jason Speaks's Gravatar Jason Speaks
    May 9, 2012 - 5:40 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:

    Just curious, why would Manifest Destiny necessarily be a bad idea?

  83. Edward's Gravatar Edward
    May 9, 2012 - 5:39 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM: Just the facts with no distracting put downs. Very nice. This should have been your first post.

  84. European's Gravatar European
    May 9, 2012 - 5:39 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:
    A little off subject, but you seem to know, and I profess am uncertain. Opole in Polen, is this the same as the fomerly German City Oppeln/Schlesien? I’ve tried to get in touch with that City regarding Birth-Records around WWI of German decendants, but the City’s House of Records have ignored me, as it is now Polen and no German Records where saved or kept from both wars.

  85. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 5:28 pm | Permalink

    @Edward:

    The insults you let loose over what constitutes Poland “proper” are certainly off-topic

    Again, I’m (almost) speechless.
    To state that Poznań (Posen) is not Poland “proper” is like stating that Paris is not France “proper”!
    1. Poznań is the most prominent city of Wielkopolska (Greater Poland), its “capital”.
    2. In the vicinity of Poznań, there is Gniezno – factual, or legenadary first capital of Poland.
    3. Contemporary Polish language is based on the dialect of Poznań.
    4. Polish statehood developed along the axis of Wielkopolska (with Poznań) and Małopolska (Lesser Poland, with Kraków, then called “Galicia” in the wake of partitions).

    Where are the insults?!

  86. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 9, 2012 - 5:21 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    I believe nowhere had I tried to even suggest Poland’s victimization. We have fought for our place under the sun, like all our neighbors.

    Fair enough, in more ways than one. Yet I still lament the fact that a great many white nations of the past and present—not merely Russians, Germans, and those 19th-century Americans who wholeheartedly embraced the “manifest destiny” nonsense—have equated acquiring a place in the sun with overlordship of other peoples and widespread dominion over land and sea. You will know better than I of the historical tensions and animosities that underlie your own people’s relations with Ukrainians and Lithuanians, as well as with the South Slavs and your fellow West Slavs. (NB: I am in no way apportioning blame here, least of all to Poles or Poland.)

    … we are between a hammer and an anvil …

    No argument there. Yet such was not always the case, wouldn’t you agree? During many of the centuries of the (non-)Holy (non-)Roman (non-)Empire, when “Germany” was a language area rather than a hugely populous and centrally ruled nation, the hammer wasn’t much of a threat, was it? Indeed, for 150 years or so, before Poland’s ill-advised welcome to the Jews came back to bite it in the bottom, Poland was a bit of a hammer itself, I think.

    Permit me briefly to wander off the immediate topic of your noble nation (as a Traditional Catholic I use that adjective completely without irony). The imperial impulse and the worship of hyperconsolidation has been, I believe, a vice that we of the West can’t blame entirely on Jewish influence or propaganda, although they, with their constant scheming and skill at subversion, certainly profit from it everywhere and so have (through their near-total control of the teaching of history and historiography) urged it upon us all as the overriding, the paramount norm of human political organization. Can Poles, Americans, Russians, Germans, Englishmen, and even bumbling Italians ever wake up to the fact that bigger government, more land, and ever-increasing power over the affairs of others aren’t necessarily conducive to peace, prosperity, relative private happiness, and cultural blossoming? Not, unfortunately, if the views expressed by a majority of commenters here at TOO are an accurate barometer.

  87. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 5:13 pm | Permalink

    @Sanjay:
    My Goodness!
    I’m all for what you have written! I only demand that we should not denigrate others of out stock, even in passing. I presume the Poles are the white Westerners in your dictionary.
    Even professor MacDonald once determined that Poles are not fools :).

  88. Edward's Gravatar Edward
    May 9, 2012 - 5:04 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    I am not against author Joyce’s illuminating readership on pogroms in Russia. This matter is absolutely irrelevant to me

    How could the pogroms which were used to justify Jewish Bolshevism be considered irrelevant, especially to a Pole (or any eastern European)?

    I would love to learn, you have read all my polemics. They are in no way trivial, distractive, or off-topic, I daresay.

    The insults you let loose over what constitutes Poland “proper” are certainly off-topic. How is this relevant to a discussion on the pogroms?

  89. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 9, 2012 - 5:01 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    Please stop waging this war on Joyce and other Whites. You are fracturing the White solidarity with these baseless allegations of Anti-Pole sentiment in Joyce’s writings.

    What Whites need, what is most precious is the common Western Homelands, EUROPE and AMERICA, the Western Peoples and the Western Civilization.

    The integrity, beauty and purity of White Western Civilization, White Western Peoples and White Western Women and their families must be defended, preserved and advanced.

    Stop fracturing the White solidarity.

  90. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 4:37 pm | Permalink

    @Pierre de Craon:
    I believe nowhere had I tried to even suggest Poland’s victimization. We have fought for our place under the sun, like all our neighbors. However, honesty demands to state that we are between a hammer and an anvil (Germans and Russians). Nothing unusual here, such luck. Obviously, we are here to stay, ready to fight if need be, there is no other way, period.

    My, quite innocuous, polemics with author Joyce started with arguably justified critique of what I call his warm-up.
    I’m not going to repeat or supplement my argumentation beyond the following: had author Joice been a student of history introducing a paper like above column, his professor would have written the text all over in red demanding clarifications, deletions, etc.. Not because the hypothetical professor is brainwashed, mainstream indoctrinator.
    In Poland, a 15 y.o. schoolchild would have gotten at best a G for such paper. This is the whole story.

  91. Pierre de Craon's Gravatar Pierre de Craon
    May 9, 2012 - 4:07 pm | Permalink

    Matters are getting out of hand here. I hope at least that GREZCM will agree that Poland’s history, whether that of the twentieth century or earlier, is not entirely one of victimization. I am second to none in considering General Pilsudski one of the true heroes of the West for his near-miraculous actions in thwarting the Judaeo-Bolshevik move, under Trotsky’s direction, to seize Poland, Germany, and much else besides for its envisioned bloodthirsty European empire under nominal Russian suzerainty. Yet Poland’s 1938 annexation of the eastern Czech lands and its high-handed ultimatum to Lithuania—whose post–World War I creation had been no more arbitrary than the redrafted Polish borders and the mass relocations of Slavs, Germans, Hungarians, and God alone knows whom else—are embarrassments rivaling those in any other white nation’s or people’s recent history.

    Joseph Sobran (himself an ancestral Pole) used to write that the difference between patriotism and nationalism was that the former was analogous to normal, healthy love of one’s mother—you loved her precisely because she was your mother, and you understood, without resentment, that everyone else felt just the same about his or her own mother—whereas the latter was analogous to loving one’s mother only if she could beat the bejeezus out of every other mother on the block. The cogency of his analysis, easily confirmed by both the facts of history and the conduct of today’s Jewish neocons the world over, is one of several reasons I would rather call myself a white loyalist than a white nationalist.

    Only fools think that the bad blood and the hatreds, now many centuries old, that divide Europe’s white peoples will magically melt away in the face of today’s world-historical Judaic threat—that would make far, far too much sense!—but unless they can achieve some degree of separation, even a noumenal one, between the emotions and the intellect, all of us, including Professor MacDonald, might better spend our remaining free time packing our bags and our neopagan video games preparatory to moving into one of the Jews’ planned continent-sized Konzentrationslager.

    Realizing that no one agrees with everyone else on every point, here at TOO no less than anywhere else, I look forward to the continuation of Mr. Joyce’s article.

  92. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 3:53 pm | Permalink

    @dubyasee:
    Sorry, to defend one’s nation cannot be honestly interpreted as promoting pro-Judaic narrative. They (Judaics) are quite able to defend themselves, even with falsehoods.

  93. Franklin Ryckaert's Gravatar Franklin Ryckaert
    May 9, 2012 - 3:49 pm | Permalink

    @Edward:
    He seems to be suffering from a selfconfessed wounded polonocentrism (“…even in my patriotic and polonocentric mind…”) that never can be satisfied.

    Poland has indeed suffered many painful vicissitudes in its history but is that our fault? WN should try to find common ground for all European and European derived peoples. Historical grudges should be open to debate, but not as a reason for renewed hostilities. Historical discussions should serve a constructive purpose.

  94. dubyasee's Gravatar dubyasee
    May 9, 2012 - 3:38 pm | Permalink

    GREZCM enjoys inordinate attention from the participants of this thread and is more than likely, a paid lackey or internet-troll, promoting the Zionist party line. I would prefer to see discussion between occidental persons directed toward improving our lot and away from the corrosive effects of GREZCM and his ilk. I think it a fool’s errand to engage GREZCM in debate, for the GREZCMs of the world aren’t interested in dialog, only in ensnarling the earnest, but naive Goyim in fruitless word games.

  95. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 9, 2012 - 3:24 pm | Permalink

    @Edward:
    You are right. The real Americans are rejecting this toxic “culture”. How do you know that the real Poles are not rejecting it at a fundamental level? and that they are not successfully exploiting the weakness of the current system? I know they do it.

    Who will asses for the Poles which Empire is/was more dangerous for the Poles?

    Now, you and buckle are proposing something like: hey, we have nothing for you Poles, or whatever. But you should be nice toward the Russian Empire because the American Empire is toxic and the white race will somehow survive with your sacrifice.

    Mutatis mutandis, you are criticizing Churchill and still you offer the same kind of deal.

    My hope is that the white nationalism will be able to solve such kind of issues, becoming the peaceful framework for all the European peoples.
    This kind of crevasses are of bad omen. Still everybody seem to be fighting hard to enlarge them. Hurricanes because of Harold Covington, because of Christianity or Paganism, because of Putin and now because of a certain perception of Poles and a certain manner to touch a dramatic moment of Poland’s history.

    We need to build unity not further the cracks. Somebody will use them against us no matter where we are.

  96. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 3:17 pm | Permalink

    @Edward:
    I am not against author Joyce’s illuminating readership on pogroms in Russia. This matter is absolutely irrelevant to me, as long as the author treats my nation with basic, well deserved respect. So far, the author fails miserably.
    If false remarks, even pronounced in passing, are not challenged, they are absorbed as “truth”.
    I would love to learn, you have read all my polemics. They are in no way trivial, distractive, or off-topic, I daresay.

  97. Edward's Gravatar Edward
    May 9, 2012 - 2:51 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    The overseas amateurs, like the author “Joyce” will not contribute positively in any way to understanding East European matters. Author “Joyce” has no clue.

    Why so nasty? This important article seeks to illuminate events leading up to the Russian “pogroms” that have been shrouded in darkness by establishment historians. Why would a Pole be against this? If you find gaps in Joyce’s narrative, why not perform a positive service by providing corrected or more complete information? So far you have not done so.

    By the way, you create a very bad impression on this forum by identifying as a Pole with such a heavy chip on your shoulder. Poland was treated badly, but the attitude you put forth seems to invite further mistreatment.

  98. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 2:04 pm | Permalink

    I think GREZCM needs a hug. Poor lad.

  99. Edward's Gravatar Edward
    May 9, 2012 - 1:53 pm | Permalink

    @Razvan:

    Which empire to choose? The Russian or the American one?

    What strings are attached in the deal with America? Must the Poles accept the official “American” culture (which real Americans resist)? If Poland accepts said culture, she will be dissolved within a generation.

  100. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 1:43 pm | Permalink

    @buckle:
    Yes, yes, Polish patriotism was “dysfunctional”, meaning it was troublesome for others. How sad. Polish patriotism should have been “rational”, right? Meaning we should have cared more for broader picture, right? Germans had claims – Poles should have satisfy their demands, likewise with Russians’. All in the name of world peace, right? So that “our brave boys don’t have to die for Danzig”, right?
    Well, we live where we do, and this will never change. Neither Germans, nor Russians are able to deprive our right to live here independently. The only way to “solve the problem” is to exterminate us altogether.
    How sad that there was a war (WW2), allegedly caused by us (Poles). Dozens millions died. How sad. I prefer nobody has died but, having a choice, let the millions die, so that we remain a nation and a country. Sorry guys, but “Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła, kiedy my żyjemy” (first verse of the Polish anthem). To throw oneself under the wagon for the benefit of wider mankind is too much for any nation.
    Likewise, I endlessly pity the Russians’ fate under Judaic (known as communist) rule. I love Russia and Russians. Russians are fine people. I know what I’m talking about, I have visited the country 20+ times, I will never forget a Natasha of Tumen, I met in Yalta as a student :). I have visited Moscow many times, seen the Baikal Lake, etc..
    For one thing I don’t feel sorry. Russia, allegedly, took over vast parts of Poland with plenty of Jews. These Jews brought Russia down. In a way, the Jews may be seen as a “Polish” poison pill, right? Well, better all this didn’t happen.
    The author “Joyce” sets up a narrative: benevolent Russia mismanaged Judaic matters. The rest is known, though may be regurgitated once more.
    Even Russia’s victory in WW2 is a Pyrrhic one (for Russians), today is 67th anniversary. The war was the nail in the coffin for Russian nation, due to demographic devastation.

  101. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 9, 2012 - 1:38 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    The difference is that the Germans and Russians wanted dominance over Poland just as Poland wanted dominance over others such as Kozaks in previous centuries.

    Poles were not pure angels and germans / russians were not pure evil. All had their faults. Poles enslaved plenty of non-poles and polish crimes against other europeans is as long as german and russian crimes.

    But the Jew is totally different. Unlike Russians, Germans or others, Jew sought to crush the very identity and soul of Europeans, not just their land.

    Russians and Germans never attacked Christianity itself although there were wars between catholics, orthodox and protestants.

    The Jew is therefore a much more vicious adversary.

  102. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 9, 2012 - 1:13 pm | Permalink

    @buckle:
    I hope I am on the right site. And superficially that alliance already exists like it or not.

    I asked an obviously difficult question that can not be tagged like “neo-con alliance” but “what to do in order to survive”. You can not ask Poland to sacrifices itself to the Russian Empire in order to secure the white race survival. Because it will not be about white race survival but it would be about some Empire survival on the expense of some European people. Situation that usually degenerated into war for the benefit of you know who. No matter what, they are doing it masterfully. Are you sure this is what you want?

    Until such kind of questions are not fully answered and the implications are not fully understood you unknowingly and unintentionally create another break in the white race. Yesterday it was about Christians vs Pagans vs Atheists. Today it is about the interests of one Empire against its smaller neighbors towards it has huge historical debts. Debts usually dismissed with arrogance.

  103. buckle's Gravatar buckle
    May 9, 2012 - 12:40 pm | Permalink

    @Razvan:

    If you are looking for an alliance with neo-cons (which is what your vision for Poland demands), you’ve come to the wrong site!

  104. buckle's Gravatar buckle
    May 9, 2012 - 12:24 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    Grezcm, I was talking about two futures Popes (Pius XI and Paul VI) who, whilst obviously Catholic, found the synthesis of patriotism (if you prefer) and Catholicism a dysfunctional combination in the Polish context.

    My comment was aimed at the naïveté of the junta of generals running your country. Did they really trust the British to defend Polish interests? Ireland’s de Valera was not so stupid and despite the offer of “Northern Ireland on a plate”, by way of a bribe, refused to be drawn into WWII when invited to do so by Churchill. The same man who would sell your country down the river at Yalta.

  105. Pat Hannagan's Gravatar Pat Hannagan
    May 9, 2012 - 12:16 pm | Permalink

    I judge that GREZCM is a pain in the arse.

    Great essay Mr Joyce! I am looking forward to your next installment.

  106. Tom's Gravatar Tom
    May 9, 2012 - 12:01 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    I can see where a Pole might perfer the use of Cold War terms like “zone of control” or “area of occupation” to describe the 18th Century partition of Poland.

    My question still stands, where was “New Jerusalem” in relation to Warsaw? East? South? That seems to have been the late 18th century hive of Jew activity in the area.

  107. May 9, 2012 - 10:20 am | Permalink

    I judge Andrew Joyce, and NOT Grezcm, to have demonstrated conciliation, sound scholarship, AND if anything, TOO MUCH patience with a heckler whose noise-to-content ratio leaves us all with an unwelcome burden.

    Andrew Joyce, keep writing. Grezcm, keep reading. I judge our poster’s fresh perspective might widen your own understanding, if you would but let it.

  108. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 9:44 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    I couldn’t agree more. Let the others judge.

  109. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 9:42 am | Permalink

    Please look at your first comment, and Edwards reaction, and tell me who really started off confrontational. Also, look at my conciliatory first response. I feel confident in leaving it to other observers to judge you and your intentions, and the validity of your arguments.

  110. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 9:25 am | Permalink

    Grezcm: I am still waiting. Please, challenge any fact that I have stated, overturn any ‘judaic’ source. Try, and I know this may be difficult fot you, not to mention place names in your responses (I am they are/were all lovely centres of European excellence). You are like the guest who never leaves. Please go and write a highly detailed volume on the history of Polish places in history. I am sure you will male a ton of cash!

  111. Razvan's Gravatar Razvan
    May 9, 2012 - 8:56 am | Permalink

    @buckle:
    What if the Poles and others might consider that the Russians represent a bigger danger for their national identity than the American multiculturalism? It was not only the jewish bolsheviks to destroy Poland, but also the tsars. Soviet, tsarist or Russian empire… for the Poles might not make a difference. Even the Katyn might have been ordered by a jew the trigger was pulled by a Russian.

    It is a difficult problem and a superficial take on it might render any white nationalist idea as impracticable or catastrophic for half of the European peoples. For this part of Europe the idea of security is still equal with to not be invaded by the Russian Empire.

    As long as the Russian state keeps its imperialistic stance and rhetoric (even against the Russian people) somebody will speculate on that for sure. How about the “New Europe” (as GW Bush named it) hoping to survive another historical round makes an alliance with the “enemy”? That’s why some American anti-missiles installations are desired in “eastern” Europe. They are only defensive installation with only few hundreds US soldiers. Still, this makes Putin apoplectic.

    Which empire to choose? The Russian or the American one?
    The Russian Empire was seen in action for 200 years!

  112. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 8:55 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    Hehehe,
    I have no obsession with Polish geography. I daresay I have no obsessions at all. I am just a patriot with inclination to objectivity.
    Wielkopolska, Małopolska, Mazowsze are not geographical terms, but historical, purely so.

    The facts of the Congress of Vienna are freely available

    Yes, I couldn’t agree more. Why do you mislead readers as to substance of the Congress, then?
    And, there was a matter of “the establishment of a Polish state under Russian sovereignty” ? Do you mean “Poland proper” in your language, heh? “Poland proper”, yes? Without Poznań, Kraków, Lwów, yes?
    And I’m not at all “fishing” for your genuine identity. I would not care less. However, be advised to limit yourself to writing on unverifiable history. I proposed ancient Maya peoples. Also, there are Sumerians, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, etc. – lots of mythology, few facts – LARGE AREAS FOR SPECULATIONS.
    You can concoct anything you wish, and nobody will challenge you with questions. Good luck!

  113. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 8:26 am | Permalink

    Also, do I say that the major powers were ‘preoccupied’ with Poland? – No. In relation yo Poland I state only that they met to give their assent. This word, in case you didn’t know, implies a basic ‘rubber-stamping’ of the process. You are a rather artful creature at putting words in people’s mouths (or articles).

  114. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 8:20 am | Permalink

    ”mixing material once published with reality” Yes, and I can also bend space and time….
    Your obsession with Polish geography is unhealthy – all of the geographical terms I use are to provide a useful, general guide for our readers, who are not here because they share your love of Polish geography.
    The facts of the Congress of Vienna are freely available. I shall not waste my time looking up sources for you but please let me know when you discover that the establishment of a Polish state under Russian sovereignty was not part of it.
    I have had better critics of my work than you. Nice technique in fishing for my identity BTW. ; )

  115. blue rose's Gravatar blue rose
    May 9, 2012 - 8:10 am | Permalink

    Thank you Andrew Joyce. A fascinating article. I’ll try to keep up.

  116. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 7:57 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    your last response
    I’m speechless, but not altogether.
    Firstly, I have notice your clumsy technique, which is mixing material once published with reality.
    Be advised to learn that Poland proper is Wielkopolska (with Poznań) and Małopolska (with Kraków and Lwów), then comes Mazowsze (with Warsaw), and to lesser extent Silesia (with Wrocław (Breslau), and Opole (Oppeln).
    Your problem is, that you cite Judaic sources, which are by definition false, or at least misleading.
    Another of your problems is, that you address matters from the opposite side of the globe. I bet, correctly, that you write the column under a pen-name (which is nothing wrong in itself), and you are not an European. At least you are an ignoramus on matters re Eastern Europe.
    Technically, anybody can claim, as you do, correctness of ones’ statements, if one “correctly employs citations from published sources”.

    Let me illustrate the matter. Once, a Jew (Leon Uris) cited an inmate of Auschwitz who said (testified), that a Pole Dr Władysław Dering (also an inmate, member of medical staff) performed 16000 surgical operations on Jewesses in order to make the poor women unable to procreate. The fact is, that Uris published a false story. The fact that it was published in no way makes his narrative true. Dr Dering won a libel suit against Uris, though the printed matter exists today, and forever will.

    Your citations bear likewise value: they prove that something was published, not that it is truthful.

    Technical correctness is not enough. You seem to be satisfied with the technical correctness. You have a source (published material), thus you absolve yourself from evaluating what you cite.

    Re Congress of Vienna: please post here your sources, which indicate, that the meeting of then most powerful states in Europe were mostly preoccupied with “Polish question”. The Congress of Vienna was preoccupied with only one matter: which changes in Europe, introduced by Napoleon to accept, which to reject. The grand changes were made in Italy and Germany (whatever Germany at that time meant). Poland (or the Duchy of Warsaw) was hardly a footnote.

  117. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 7:29 am | Permalink

    @GREZCM: “Or, maybe, you have carelessly, planted in the cited paragraph the sentence I have highlighted in bold?” No, not carelessly at all. I believe it is quite important to note that reports were reaching Russian officials about Jewish economic practices in Warsaw less than 12 months before they were expelled from the city, and that it is clearly worth drawing the attention of readers to the widespread nature of such discussions. Nothing further is implied by the sentence, other than reports reaching Russians. You seem to have a fanatical, and illogical, opposition to this sentence, which is cited from a scholarly source and is factually corroborated. You seem to be having incredible difficulty in seeing where one statement ends and another begins. Was it so painful and difficult to pause for a second while we acknowledged the broader range of the discussion of Jewish economic practices in Poland – are you finding it unbelievably difficult to understand that a Russian official can hear about Jewish economic practices in Poland without in some way orchestrating the Warsaw expulsion? Or, is it, as I suspect, that you are “sweating the small stuff” in order to distract attention from the broad sweep of the article?

  118. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 6:59 am | Permalink

    @GREZCM:
    1. “You describe Poland as a country (kingdom or otherwise), which extended over broad areas between Prussia and southern Ukraine” – do I? It looks to me like a direct quote from Israel Bartal, The Jews of Eastern Europe: 1772-1881, (Tel Aviv, Ministry of Defence, 2005) p.23!
    2. ‘Proper’ being the term used in Israel Friedlander, The Jews of Russia and Poland, (New York: G.P. Putnam, 1915), p.84, a usage of which I approve. See also the book, “Poland and the Poles” page 16 (google books) where Poland proper is described as containing “Greater Poland, with Upper Silesia, and Kujawia.” The term is fairly well-known, and well-used, though you may have misunderstood it.
    3.” How very strange! Mother Russia, supposedly wanted to help Poland in Poland’s internal affairs, with obvious effect of strengthening Poland? Where is the logic of this? Didn’t Russia prefer Poland to weaken?” I indicate nothing of the sort. Now you are losing coherence. Reports reaching officials doesn’t mean anything else, you seem to have trouble grasping this. Do I indicate that there was Russian involvement in the Warsaw expulsion – READ the words don’t just look at them. No-one else seems to have had difficulty with this.
    4.”You write, that the aim was to deal with Poland’s matters?! THE aim?” No, I clearly state that the aim of the congress was to “to give its assent to the formation of a new autonomous Polish kingdom under the sovereignty of Russia.” I consulted at least three texts on this. Numerous world powers were present, the central goal was to bring about peace following the defeat of Napoleon, one of the decision reached was the above, as part of this over-arching goal. Is this still difficult for you to comprehend. Do you have trouble understanding what the word “aim” means? E.G. purpose, goal, target?
    And finally : “This, however, does not furnish you with a license to write falsehoods, or logical and historical untruths. ” At this point I am smelling a troll, and I am going to have to start referring to you as Abraham – again, everything in the above article is scholarly referenced, fact-checked and proof-read. You are an unfortunate character.

  119. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 6:16 am | Permalink

    @buckle:
    This anti-Polish rambling of yours is presented here not for the first time. I recollect, it was posted on this site at least once before (I don’t bother to investigate in detail).
    But, in one aspect I will agree with you: Polish “nationalism” (some would call it more positively “patriotism”) is the pain in the ass of Germans, Russians and others, who would prefer us to quietly accept the diktat of outside forces. This, however, will never happen in the long run. As history has amply proven, we are here to stay.
    My idea is, that all our neighbors should be rich, healthy and powerful, but never at our expense.

  120. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 9, 2012 - 5:50 am | Permalink

    @Andrew Joyce:
    1. You describe Poland as a country (kingdom or otherwise), which

    extended over broad areas between Prussia and southern Ukraine

    . Likewise one can describe the United States as a country, which extends over broad areas between Canada and Yucatán Peninsula, or Great Brittain, extending … between Ireland and the North Sea.
    2. You write

    Polish Jewry was divided into three parts – those in Posen came under the sovereignty of Prussia, those in Galicia came under the sovereignty of Austria, and those in Poland proper came under the sovereignty of the Russian Empire.

    .
    You suggest, that Poznań (Posen) and “Galicia” was not “Poland proper”, right? Be advised, that Wielkopolska (with local capital in Posen), and “Galicia” (term invented for Małopolska, with capital in Kraków, and other important city Lwów (Lemberg) were Poland proper, whatever “proper” indicates.
    3. You write

    Investigations carried out by special committees discovered that in the decades prior to partition, Polish Jewry had enjoyed a demographic explosion, with Jews now representing almost 20% of the entire population. In addition, it was discovered that Jews controlled a full 75% of Polish exports, and that many were now spilling out of over-populated urban centres into the countryside, making a living by monopolising the sale of liquor to peasants.[11] By 1774, complaints were reaching Russian officials from non-Jewish merchants who argued that Jewish ethnic networking was propping up the monopoly of exports, and that this monopoly would shortly have dire implications for the consumer.[12] These revelations were the key motivating factors in the decision to expel Warsaw’s Jews in 1775, and until the early 19th century there was a kind of stand-off between Poles and Jews.[13] Napoleon’s establishment of the Duchy of Warsaw in 1807 did little to alter the situation, as Napoleon acceded to local sentiment which held that Jews should not feel the benefit of the new constitution until they had “eradicated their peculiar characteristics.”[14] In 1813, the government of the Duchy moved to break the Jewish monopoly on liquor, banning all Jews from selling alcohol in the villages, bringing an end to the activity of “tens of thousands” of Jewish liquor merchants in the provinces. Not surprisingly, when the Duchy was dissolved in 1815 following Napoleon’s failed attempt to invade Russia, Polish Jewry shed no tears.

    Together with your response in comments section, you suggest that “mother Russia” dealt with Judaic hoaxers and narcotic (alcohol) peddlers in Poland, and the matter was solved (expulsion from Warsaw, and ban for alcohol peddling).
    How very strange! Mother Russia, supposedly wanted to help Poland in Poland’s internal affairs, with obvious effect of strengthening Poland? Where is the logic of this? Didn’t Russia prefer Poland to weaken?
    Or, maybe, you have carelessly, planted in the cited paragraph the sentence I have highlighted in bold?
    4. You write

    In late 1815, the Congress of Vienna was held. The aim of the congress was to give its assent to the formation of a new autonomous Polish kingdom under the sovereignty of Russia.

    This I find as another shot wide. Even in my patriotic and polonocenric mind, I remain puzzled reading such statement. You write, that the aim was to deal with Poland’s matters?! THE aim?

    Generally, I assume, you have included remarks relating Poland, as a form of a warm up. You openly admit this in your response in comments section. This, however, does not furnish you with a license to write falsehoods, or logical and historical untruths.

  121. buckle's Gravatar buckle
    May 9, 2012 - 3:32 am | Permalink

    My understanding is that at least two future Popes worked for the nunciature in Poland before WWII (sort of Vatican embassy). Both found Polish nationalism a problem. At the risk of inviting commnents from those who would see this as proof of Vatican race treachery, Neville Chamberlain also found them difficult to work with when negotiating Danzig. By offering them a war guarantee he couldn’t honour in March 1939, Nev effectively sealed their fate as a nation. They should have struck a deal like the Czechs whose country and beautiful capital Prague, survived the cataclysm relatively unscathed. The Poles are still behaving stupidly over American missile sited aimed at Russia.

    No point in being nationalistic if you are dumb at the same time i.e here is good nationalism and bad …

  122. Andrew Joyce's Gravatar Andrew Joyce
    May 9, 2012 - 3:01 am | Permalink

    @GREZCM: While you express it somewhat strongly, I can see what you are getting at. The problem is, I needed to condense the three partitions of Poland into one concise paragraph – since it really bears only small significance to the matter at hand. I focussed really on the first partition because it was the first such action to impact upon the Jewish collective. The other partitions were merely incidental in this respect. Also, the paragraph that I wrote remains factually correct – the 1815 Congress of Vienna is aptly described later – did you read that far? Also, I do not imply that Warsaw was under Russian control – in fact, I detail an ambiguous period for the Duchy, including the period under Napoleon. And finally, as you say this period has left ample documentation, and this is how we know that Russian, yes Russian, officials were being contacted about dubious Jewish economic practices in Warsaw, presumably in the same way American consuls are informed about happenings in South America – does this mean South America is under direct American control? No. But I presumed such a simple comment would speak for itself and require no further explanation. Total historic nonsense?

  123. Panina's Gravatar Panina
    May 9, 2012 - 12:49 am | Permalink

    Sanjay rightly identifies the center of Jewish power as banking; it’s historically how they progressively bought and corrupted everything.

    The problem is that this is a very complex subject (try explaining fractional banking and inflation to the masses), and it renders frontal attacks against Jews nearly impossible to carry.

  124. Edward's Gravatar Edward
    May 8, 2012 - 11:56 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    You need to greatly improve, Mr. Author or write on the ancient Maya civilization, for example. This subject has great advantages: no records, no dates to check, no nothing.

    Greetings from Poland.

    This mockery savors of a malignancy that is telltale. Are you sure that you hail from the land of the Poles?

  125. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 8, 2012 - 11:37 pm | Permalink

    @Bear:

    I am with America and the West.

  126. Alice Teller's Gravatar Alice Teller
    May 8, 2012 - 11:03 pm | Permalink

    @Kievsky:
    Thanks for the mention of Goldwin Smith, I was not familiar with him. I look forward to reading his work, if I can find it.

  127. mari's Gravatar mari
    May 8, 2012 - 10:42 pm | Permalink

    At the time of the partition of Poland the Polish goverment had neither a national army nor a diplomatic service.

    The reason was simple. The tax collectors were not salaried goverment employees. Like most tax collectors in Europe they were independent contractors, much like bill collectors today.

    Their payment was on contigency, a certain percentage of the taxes they collected. In some countries they were called tax farmers. The goverments of western Europe kept track of the tax farmers insuring that the tax farmers turned over most of the tax revenue to the goverment and keeping only a reasonable amount as payment for their work.

    The Polish upper classes and goverment however had for centuries allowed Jews to get away with all sorts of financial crimes from 400 percent interest rates to keeping most of the tax revenues for the collectors who were almost all Jews.

    That is why Poland was partioned. The Polish goverment had no money for an army or diplomatic service because it had foolishly turned over tax collection to the Jews who stole the entire revenues of the state.

  128. mari's Gravatar mari
    May 8, 2012 - 10:34 pm | Permalink

    The “progroms” are just one more example of Jewish propaganda as eternally superior victims of the sub human goyim.

    The real reason Jews fled Russia and the Russian areas of Poland was the draft. For centuries the Jews of Russia and its colonies arranged to be free of the draft. Around 1860
    in exchange for more civil rights, Jews had to agree to be subject to the draft.

    The draft boards were notoriously corrupt and took bribes for exemptions. The Jews of course were the group most likely to bribe and threaten the draft boards, not register the birth of male children, to give all men in the community the same names and use other methods of evading the draft.

    Around 1880 the Russian goverment cracked down on draft board corruption and Jews and other draft evaders could no longer evade the draft.

    That and that alone is the major reason the Jews left Russia and invaded the US. The secondary reason is that by 1880 the communist and various revolutionary movements were majority Jewish. The Jews were murdering evil representatives of the goverment such as postmen and railroad workers etc.

    So they left. In virtually all countries Jews have been known to evade the draft. Germans as far back as 1500 noted that Jews were always eager to sell junk to the military and be goverment contractors but did everything possible including dressing as women to evade the draft.

    The more things change the more Jews remain the same.

    The progroms were a Jewish myth, no different than the Jewish myth that the Palestinians have no right to live in the country their ancestors have lived in for thousands of years.

  129. Whites Unite's Gravatar Whites Unite
    May 8, 2012 - 9:48 pm | Permalink

    “We believe that [THE FACT THAT ONLY THREE JEWS DIED IN THE POGROM] is more than irrelevant because it redirects public attention from the major topic: the genocidal essence of pogrom.”

  130. Bear's Gravatar Bear
    May 8, 2012 - 9:34 pm | Permalink

    These are going to be a very important series of articles; I am excited about reading them. Jewish bonding is so much around victimology (and sharted hatred and fear of the gentile) and so much of their moral power against gentiles is based around guilt tripping them. These events need to be explored empirically and factualy so as to provide the basis of a White nationalist perspective free from the agenda driven ‘history’ of the main stream media.

    One is left with the impression that ethnic Poles never really had a chance to bootstrap their own nation given the domination Jews achieved in economic life and in middleman roles that might have provided upward mobillity. The normal excuse for the poor economic state of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is the assistance the King provided to Austria in fighting of the Turks (Siege of Vieana) exhausted them. It seem to me they suffered something akin to the Global Financial Crisis whereby the whole economic and monetay system becomes about monoplistic control and userus acquisition of money by a confederacy of Polish/Jewish elites rather than supporting economic development and a means of exchange.

    I fear that the need of Poles to ‘atone’ for their supposed discrimination against Jews (prior to WW2) and option of being seen as the good guys who were fellow victims of WW2 may make them end up dominated by the financial race once again. It’s terribly easy for a wealthy goy elite in with a cash flow problem to allow himself to become beholden, neutered and indifferent to his own people.

    One characteristic of the “myths of life in the Pale” is that they are full of stories of victimology and discrimination but at the same time fail to mention that ordinary Russians/Poles/Galacians/Germans also were restricted in similar ways in these feudal societies but at the same time also did not enjoy some of the priveledges granted to Jews.

    @Sanjay, thankyou for your goodwill.

  131. Neville's Gravatar Neville
    May 8, 2012 - 9:28 pm | Permalink

    Those were the Kazar Ashkenazi Jews who by 1860 consisted of more than half of world Jewry & resided in the Pale.
    Today they compose 80% of the world’s Jewish population of 14 ,000,000.
    Naturally they looked for easy ways to make money.
    Interesting that as in the early USA opportunities presented in selling alcohol to the natives.
    Was it capitalism ? Seeing opportunities & going for them has long been the secret of success for many.
    Today Jewish Americans make up 2.5 % of the U.S. population yet comprise over 40 percent of U.S. billionaires.
    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081225081341AADsYIk

    The problem is that most all Jews have their first loyalty to Israel allowing Jews to ethnically cleanse Palestine of Muslim & Christian Arabs in a most brutal fashion , breaking all agreements that founding Ashkenazi Jews made since the Balfour Declaration.

    The goyim are asleep like those Russian peasants & one can only wonder if & how those “charitable” Jewish billions donated to Israel are Tax Free deductions ?

    Unfortunately Andrew Joyce’s quote below does not apply today.
    “the government also viewed with alarm the rapidity with which the “Jews were exploiting the unsophisticated and ignorant rural inhabitants, reducing them to a Jewish serfdom.”

  132. Tom's Gravatar Tom
    May 8, 2012 - 7:18 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    It’s also possible that Poles were reacting to Russian complaints about Jew behavior from those Jews in the Warsaw area doing business and selling alcohol in Russian controlled territory.

    Where was “New Jersualem” outside of Warsaw in relation to the Polish-Russian border/zone of control?

    I came across an interesting fact, that even in the winter of 1944 Jew merchants were still peddling their wares between Germany and Belgium, and, the US Army was using the Jews to gather intelligence about the German army. Not quite the usual holocaust story. LOL

  133. buckle's Gravatar buckle
    May 8, 2012 - 7:00 pm | Permalink

    @GREZCM:

    I suspect that you have misread the text. The reference is taken from a source which has as its subject the history of Jews in Russia AND Poland. In other words the author is drawing a parallel between both countries.

  134. GREZCM's Gravatar GREZCM
    May 8, 2012 - 6:05 pm | Permalink

    The first two paragraphs of “Part One: Russia’s Jewish Question” is total historic nonsense.

    This thing is breathtaking:

    By 1774, complaints were reaching Russian officials from non-Jewish merchants who argued that Jewish ethnic networking was propping up the monopoly of exports, and that this monopoly would shortly have dire implications for the consumer.[12] These revelations were the key motivating factors in the decision to expel Warsaw’s Jews in 1775 …

    .

    I believe it may come as a surprise for Mr. Andrew Joyce, but Warsaw was swallowed by Russia(n Empire) only in 1815. In 1774-5 the city was the capital of Poland, then (in 1795) swallowed by Prussia (3rd partition).

    Look at the linked map.

    You need to greatly improve, Mr. Author or write on the ancient Maya civilization, for example. This subject has great advantages: no records, no dates to check, no nothing.

    Greetings from Poland.

  135. Tom's Gravatar Tom
    May 8, 2012 - 5:54 pm | Permalink

    This little history by Andrew Joyce looks like a good compliment to Solzhenitsyn’s “200 Years Together”. It seems that Joyce is saying what Solzhenitsyn said about Jews exaggerating.

    Has anyone heard when “200 Years Together” will finally be published in English?

  136. Sanjay's Gravatar Sanjay
    May 8, 2012 - 5:30 pm | Permalink

    The power of Jewish ethnic networking and their evolutionary goals result in powerful monopolies like the Federal Reserve.

    Unless this monopoly over money is broken, immigration will not be controlled.

    The Jew controls the monetary system, and then the media and then the government and CIA.

    Ron Paul was right. He has studied history. To get back control of USA, we need to break the Jew’s monopoly over Western money.

    Israel is now witnessing demographic explosion at the expense of White wealth and resources.

  137. Kievsky's Gravatar Kievsky
    May 8, 2012 - 4:58 pm | Permalink

    Goldwin Smith debunked the pogroms while they were happening, if you can find his writings. I remember a great line from an excerpt I read:

    “The wind and tide favored the financial race.”

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