Exchange with Gerhard Meisenberg on Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition

I replied to a review of Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition by Gerhard Meisenberg, editor of Mankind Quarterly, and it ended up being an exchange as he replied to my comments and I replied to him. Issues discussed  include 1. the origin of the ancient Greeks; 2. the genetic basis of individualism; 3. altruism in tribal moral communities; 4. populism and the intellectual elite; 5. tribalism and assimilation as they relate to immigrant communities in the West; 6. whether resisting immigration of genetically dissimilar peoples is adaptive; 7. ethnic genetic interests vs. genetic interests based on social class membership.

8 replies
  1. JRM
    JRM says:

    Refreshing to read an exchange between two obviously formidable minds. And no one got compared to Hitler!

    Of course I am subject to a charge of bias, but I do think Prof. MacDonald has the superior points, and perhaps more importantly, the more open and evidence based stance. MacDonald is fearless in debate because he has the knowledge to back up his statements without resort to devious verbal dishonesty, or a fallback on emotionalism. Would that we were all so well-prepped when we sally forth to engage our opponents!

    Meisenberg shows skill in argumentation, but does fall prey to some reification, some “No True Scotsman” tactics, and confusion, whether deliberate or not, of cause and effect; also a couple of morally flavored judgements, and maybe one or two unquestioned assumptions thrown in for good measure.

    In spite of the above criticisms, Meisenberg maintains composure and generally refrains from the kind of full-scale moral panic we have grown so used to in debates that involve race and politics.

    My own cautionary note about such debates is that the subjects of Trump and Brexit almost always surface, and though it’s tempting to tie one’s reasoning to current observable phenomena, these examples carry the danger of giving our discussions a rather shorter “shelf-life” than they might warrant. 2016 is already starting to feel like it happened a long time ago.

    In addition, the election of Trump and the vote for Brexit were largely mediated by economic concerns; in particular, it would be difficult if not impossible to tease out the elements of economic distress from the aspects of any cultural or sociological conclusions we might want to attribute to Trump’s victory.

    In conclusion, we can once again be grateful for the one authentic genius our contemporary movement has to its credit: Kevin MacDonald.

  2. James Bowery
    James Bowery says:

    Q: What is the consequence to civic culture of mixing populations with differing degrees of heritable individualism?

    Q: What is the consequence to civic culture when the immigration policy preference of less than 10% of the population, for continually increasing rates, overrides that of 90% of the population for several decades?

    These are but 2 examples of why those pursuing triangulation so as to be considered “thought leaders” won’t be caught dead having a “public conversation” with me.

    • Leon Haller
      Leon Haller says:

      1.It’s a disaster, as was already understood by Wilmot Robertson half a century ago. His The Dispossessed Majority (which I read in late 1980s) awakened me to this point (among others): that the American Founding constitutional order, even if justifiable according to what I believe are universal moral norms or truths, is nevertheless an historical and especially anthropological artifact of a particular people, time and place, and that there is no reasonable expectation that support for that order can be transmitted to different peoples (ie, peoples genetically unrelated to that order’s ethnic founding stock). I believe all the world’s peoples could do worse than to adopt the US Constitution for themselves. But that type of order depends upon a high level of both individualism and social trust, which are sadly lacking among most non-Anglo-Nordics (and esp most nonwhites), and which are greatly attenuated by coercive geographical and political integration with nonwhites. IOWs, the American Order was designed for Anglo-Nordics, and would have worked very well with them alone as the citizenry. The more genetically and ethnoculturally distant the peoples we have admitted into the Union, the greater has been the sacrifice of individual rights and liberties for the Old Stock, and the worse has been the functioning of the country.

      2. Probably a loss of respect for law and the political process in general, as well as increasing anomic alienation among the now thoroughly dispossessed (and repressed and oppressed) majority.

  3. Leon Haller
    Leon Haller says:

    I downloaded and bookmarked the PDF. It looks like a great exchange. Any way it could be posted in full here at TOO?

  4. William J. Smith
    William J. Smith says:

    An interesting debate for shure.

    Regarding the old greek around 40 % of the population were slaves, most of the time if I remember correctly. Hence the racial ethnical difference between many greeks in the 11th centure and for example 400 b.c. is probably existing to a degree.

    Also the occupation of greece by the ottoman empire and the turks has surela has some effect .

    The gene tests done has been on some island. It’s hard to obtain samples in the mediterranean climate and the samples may be contaminated.

    Regardless the old greek saw the iranians as their sworn enemy.

    There might be some early iranian influence, like before iranians mixed with other peoples and before they started the massive amount of cousin marriages.

    There has also been fotprints that are like a million year old found on a greek beach (post neanderthal), hence there might have been humans in current greece for hundreds of thousands years. Even for those taking the outlook of the out of africa theory and evolutionary explanation, greece is not far from africa so humans have arrived here early supposedly. Also societies with many geniouses doesn’t have to be ethnically coherent. A more mixed society may push the people who have the ability for genious expressions in many ways.

    Also slaves does free time for people to develop their art science or theories for example, but it will most likely also lead to mixture. There is the same situation now with latino immigration and other ethnical groups to the USA. Most often they work as cheap labor also replacing whites who have to move out due to the aggression and crime. But it will lead to mixture and is now doing so…

    An other interesting question raised is the declining birth rates among whites. Many factors are probably at play here.

    The obvious anti white propaganda. The way the US economy works. Increasing divorce rates (women cling to jobs to be sure to have an income if the marriage fails), less part time jobs due to immigrants aggressively competing (and most of the time lying in competition for jobs). The anti white propaganda in the mass media, and the absence of non whites in it. The insecurity coming from the hostility and extreme aggression from other races that the media hide. That the modern society is largely based on lies and corruption and ethnical special interests.

    That there is anti white mixed people and people of obviously other races ready to steal anything a white person do, and they often hate white people.

    That most larger corporations are owned and run by mixed folks looking whiteish kinda suppose or minorities.

    Also the problem to find cost effective housing apartments is an issue, especially in an area that is safe for children. First the blacks conquered most urban areas and then the latinos and arabs just moved in everywhere. And there cultures are very different… Crime rates go through the roof with drugs everywhere… The schools are not safe so whites have to try to save up for private schools.

    All in all, it’s gonna be hard for whites to have a career, and to make enough money for all this.

    Also it’s unconscious, most people have been brainwashed by the effective propaganda in the mass media at university and school hence they are not in touch with their natural feelings and they don’t think it’s safe to discuss their fears (that are very very real). This mindfuck, fraud, also has a confusing effect on people.

    As for Japan, they are stuck between their own culture which I admire and a new western culture. Thy give their life to the company they work for and there has been structural changes. Also it’s very hard to find an apartment of a decent size in Japan hence affecting their birthrate (they don’t have the space).

    Also I think the onslaughter of pornography and n-word music (which can be good) is a factor. It leads to low selfesteem. I mean blacks have different skin structure for starters, more like sandpaper skin, thus their genitalia feels different which may have an effect on the whores in pornography (). So I think this has had an effect of lowered self esteem on whites that they don’t even have their own successful music. And the music that has been successful has been the troubadour thing pop and rock band’s that go along with its all group members contribute, the vicious evil agenda of the the snake alien sect (freemasons) and frankfurt school. To beat down and defeat geniouses that are white (and has then been beaten anyways by the more fun music of other ethnical groups).

    So yeah, we need to kickstart this thing again…

  5. William J. Smith
    William J. Smith says:

    For example the nordic region used to have replacement birth rates.

    Now it has gone down. The massimmigration of hostile races mainly arabs and blacks has had an effect. The PC empty anti white culture also. Whites are like attacked from everywhere in what is in effect a holocaust which they have been programmed to think something else than reality about.

    Also more and more areas are occupied by the other races. The anti white crime rates are going up. Especially rapes (arabs are like 8 times more likely to rape than whites, the same for africans). 70 % of rapes are by non whites. Probably 30 % women will be raped in their lifetime. This is not natural, it’s unhealthy, it’s extremely aggressive.

    Hence whites have less and less areas to live in and spend larger and larger parts of their salary on a house or an apartment to run away from the others also.

    It’s also competiton from far away countries such as china in manufacturing. Hence we loose industry and stabile jobs… And then the chinese try to steal all our intellectual property our innovations. What do we have then? nothing…

  6. William J. Smith
    William J. Smith says:

    Another aspect is the extreme hard working east indians and high iq asians that then take most of the places in higher education in technology.

    Especially those that do doctorates.

    They are on the averege less innovative than whites (some do innovative stuff, I wrote on the averege), and most of them really don’t understand things the way whites do. It’s very different.

    Hence it’s bringing our economy down.

    Also the way the markets work with speculation, to many economists trying to make a fast buck, companies lying in their annual reports… Tonsa old and new money they just wanna invest in something safe… Not in new things or venture capital, it leads to a stagnation of the economy and the companies on the stock market many being overvalued.

    This together with the stealing of land from whites which can dump property prices in some areas and make them exaggerated high in others can lead to many bubbles such as the housing loan bubble (spearheaded by ninja loans, no income no jobs loans pushed by politicians) and the like. Then all these financial crises makes it even more less likely that people invest in new things. Hence we stagnate whereas china aggressively moves forward…

  7. Xavier
    Xavier says:

    That was absolutely the most cynical powwow I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing. It was like listening to a debate between a virologist & a virus, with the virologist explaining to the virus why his patients do not want to be infected. For every reasoned, intellectual response McDonald offered, Meisenberg countered with self serving drivel & hot takes so clichéd they have already been retired & now reside in the internet’s hall of fame of memes
    Some of Meisenberg’s finest contributions
    ~”Fighting off foreign invaders is no longer adaptive….. We must not be spell-bound by the evolved tendency to resist foreign invaders…….”
    ~”who but immigrants will take care of aged baby boomers in their nursing homes?”
    ~”What, for example, is the problem with replacement migration? If the natives are too self-absorbed to raise children, perhaps they should be replaced”
    I wonder if Kevin McDonald is pulling our leg & there is no Meisenberg, only checkmark Tweets masquerading as academic responses

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