This interview pushes the envelop on conservative views on the Middle East, neocons pushing America’s forever wars, the shamelessness of pro-Israel media, Trump’s relationship with Netanyahu (not good), the evangelicals at Fox News, and much else. My excerpt begins with their discussion of these issues. The entire interview is here.

One can only hope that Trump is influenced in this direction. His recent proposal on U.S. taking over Gaza (definitely not an America First idea) does not indicate that he is paying attention to the perspectives discussed here. However, Mills states:

But with the Hook and Pompeo removal from his inner circle, are there is, I think, very credible evidence that Trump’s personal grudges are now blending quite heavily with policy. He doesn’t trust the Iran Hawk old guard. A lot of the Iran Hawk old guard think tanks struck out in getting I transition officials and officials in this government and again circled around this very unlikely Pentagon. Helmed by a guy who has changed his life, it appears in pretty severe ways over the last five years, both ideologically and morally. It is this very new Pentagon that is now being targeted by all the usual suspects. And it is the biggest story in American politics that people are talking.

Tucker [01:11:35] So if I could sum up what I think you’re saying, it is that Donald Trump may have actually broken the grip of the neocons on Washington.’

However, Trump seems to be doubling down on this horrible idea:

Trump Digs In on Gaza Takeover and Palestinian Resettlement

Aides had sought to walk back the president’s proposal, which drew condemnations. Israel’s defense minister said its military would draft plans for Gazans who wished to leave.

…But the plan has evoked celebration on the Israeli far right, many of whom have long promoted what they call “voluntary emigration” as the solution to the conflict with the Palestinians.

Curt Mills bio:

Curt Mills is the Executive Director of The American Conservative, where he previously served as senior reporter and contributing editor. He specializes in foreign policy and campaign coverage and has worked at The National Interest, U.S. News & World Report, Washington Examiner, and the Spectator. His work has appeared in Politico, UnHerd, Newsweek and the Critic. He was a 2018-2019 Robert Novak Journalism fellow. Most recently, he was a consultant at a global macro hedge fund in Los Angeles.

Tucker [00:00:00] So it’s amazing to me that over 20 years after the Iraq war, its architects and supporters are still not fully in control of America’s foreign policy, but certainly influential in it. And it’s shocking to me that two months after Trump’s landslide victory. A race in which he ran against the neo cons. The neo cons are still brazen enough to try and influence and sabotage his nominations. We are days, but less than a week before Tulsi Gabbard hearings. Where are we in the below the radar war between permanent Washington’s national security establishment, the neocons, and the incoming Trump administration?

Curt Mills [00:01:00] I think it’s unclear. So as of this recording ten months ago, Mr. Hegseth, the defense secretary, was just confirmed on the 50 votes. Hegseth is an interesting character, I believe, a former colleague of yours. Yes. He appears to have done a bit of a conversion on his foreign policy beliefs. And the best evidence of that is the people that he’s picked so far. So his cadre is the people that will.

Tucker [00:01:25] Suppose what they’re so what you’re this is relevant to people who know Pete Hegseth from clips on X of him from eight years ago saying things that would lead you to believe. He’s a pretty stout neocon.

Curt Mills [00:01:38] Yeah.

Tucker [00:01:39] But okay, so that’s what you’re referring to?

Curt Mills [00:01:43]  I think the available evidence is that he is like a circa ten years ago was a pretty conventional Republican. Yes. And he has changed his life in more ways than one. Yeah. So he is a question mark. But the early evidence is the people that he has chosen to surround himself are stark departures from the man from ten years ago. And so that’s a big deal. And especially it is a big deal, especially in a place like the Pentagon. Yes. Which is hard to control.

Tucker [00:02:09] Yes. And wants no change under any circumstances except an annual increase in number of four star generals.

Curt Mills [00:02:15] It’s the largest bureaucracy on earth.

Tucker [00:02:16] It is. And it exists to serve itself. It’s got a pretty abysmal record of winning wars, a pretty great record of spending money. It desperately needs reform. And you’re saying that based on the personnel choices you think he’s making, he’s now the defense secretary, by the way, as well, right?

Curt Mills [00:02:32] Yes.

Tucker [00:02:34] That he is like sincerely on board with Trump’s foreign policy.

Curt Mills [00:02:38] Yeah. I mean, he did not need to make these picks. I don’t think he didn’t make these picks to get confirmed. I don’t think he needed this right to win any senators. He is courting, I think, minor controversy now, which is why we’re having this meeting. He did not need to do this. It was it was a move, conviction and belief and principle in his early days in office.

Tucker [00:03:03] So give us an example. Give us him what you’re talking about.

Curt Mills [00:03:06] Sure. There’s going to be this Michael Domino figure who will have the Middle East portfolio. He has been advised throughout the process by another figure named Daniel Coldwell. These are both, you know, people in their 40s or 30s, you know, basically the millennials.

Curt Mills [00:03:22] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:03:23] Who are veterans of the global war on terror. They’re very much in the.

Tucker [00:03:27] So they fought in that.

Curt Mills [00:03:29] Yeah, Dan did. Yeah. And Michael was a CIA agent. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s these that these are the guys that were hunting down IRGC, Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps people and the Forever wars that Trump and Vance ran on reforming and ending, etc., etc.. And so, you know, they’re very much in the Vance mold of we weren’t they’re not really sure what the point was. And we want to roll back from that somewhat. I think you might have heard this message from Mr. Trump every once or twice in the last ten years.

Tucker [00:04:05] So these I don’t know. Do we know? I know. I know. Caldwell, who I think of as a man of genuine integrity, high intelligence and principle committed to his country. I think he’s proven that.

Curt Mills [00:04:17] Yeah.

Tucker [00:04:18] I mean, honestly, he’s like a wonderful person, but he’s being attacked by people who never served with a long, unbroken track record of destroying America as somehow anti-American.

Curt Mills [00:04:31] Yeah. How does this work?

Curt Mills [00:04:32] Yeah, I mean, I think that the tactics are pretty clear. So. No one reads anything. Says the magazine. Yes, it reads. And you say, Yeah, yeah, okay, you’re right.

Curt Mills [00:04:49] Get a headline out there. Call someone a naughty word. Say they’re anti a country or they are radical. You know, if the anyone sues, this publication will take years and years and years and hope that some club member at Mar a Lago hands this to President Trump. Exactly. And tries to trick him and thinks that Mr. Trump is a stupid man. And this is the approach and this is what they were trying to do at six as a cyclone. I mean, the word has been abused by the.

Curt Mills [00:05:24] Republicans to me.

Curt Mills [00:05:25] Yes, But it is this is actual disinformation. Yes. I hate to use the word, but like what are the publications?

Tucker [00:05:32] Who were the people involved in this campaign of lies?

Curt Mills [00:05:35] Okay. I mean, I’m not familiar and I don’t know any of the people over there personally, but the big story that’s going around on both to me now and I believe Caldwell is from Jewish Insider. And again, no one really wants to be, you know, attacked by something called Jewish Insider. It doesn’t sound very fun. And so they are running headlines against people and they are attacking them. And they what they do is they don’t say anything that is, per se inaccurate, but they totally strip the context for everything.

Tucker [00:06:11] So what? Let’s go one by one. Do you know what you mean?

Curt Mills [00:06:16] Just by correspondence?

Tucker [00:06:17] Okay. And what’s your is this a radical figure, anti-American figure?

Curt Mills [00:06:22] No, this is this is somebody who who wants to pull back, I would say moderately from the Middle East, which I think at this point is basically bipartisan outside of the radicals within Washington, D.C. and the Beltway.

Tucker [00:06:37] Okay. I think that’s a fair assessment. So that the people who want to continue what we’re doing at unsustainable cost, being a bankrupt country, by the way, are sending aid to countries that are not bankrupt. Right. Those are the radicals, I think it’s fair to say. So what are they saying about Domino in this hit piece?

Curt Mills [00:06:55] They are trying to make the reader jump to the conclusion that he is anti-Israeli, that he is pro-Iranian.

Tucker [00:07:02] There’s pro-Iranian.

Curt Mills [00:07:03] Iranian. He is somehow pro radical Islam. You know, he’s he’s pro all the scary people.

Tucker [00:07:09] In radical Islam.

Curt Mills [00:07:10] Sure. Yeah, whatever. It doesn’t really matter. I don’t know the guy. It sounds kind of Catholic to me. Think they think, you.

Tucker [00:07:16] Know, a lot of Shiites called Domino or is that a common name for Persians?

Curt Mills [00:07:20] Not to my information. Okay. And again, I think it bears repeating that this person like was responsible for the tracking of Revolutionary Guard Corps members in Iran, essentially sent some of them to their death. So the whole thing has an opera buffet flavor to it that he’s being attacked as.

Tucker [00:07:37] So what you’re saying is these are people who will say anything. It doesn’t doesn’t matter. They’re kind of from the very white school of journalism, just like you have an objective, something you want to achieve. And whatever it takes to get there is fine. You will say it. It doesn’t doesn’t matter. You’ll call anybody anything if it if it serves your purpose.

Curt Mills [00:07:56] They are very, very willing to destroy this person with absolutely no compunction.

Tucker [00:08:02] Is there any evidence that he’s, quote, anti Israel?

Curt Mills [00:08:04] None.

Tucker [00:08:05] Right?

Curt Mills [00:08:06] None. And in fact, is evidence to the contrary, which he which he praises the the country.

Curt Mills [00:08:10] Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:08:12] So he is critical of aspects of the war.

Tucker [00:08:19] Be critical of other people’s wars. Yeah. Or your own wars. It’s okay to offer analysis of war.

Curt Mills [00:08:24] Or to even state that it’s not, In fact, our war as the president, the United States just did on his inauguration day, emphasizing from behind the Resolute desk. Right. That is their war, not our war.

Tucker [00:08:33] So I read something from a guy called David Wurmser, who was one of the architects of of of the Iraq war, not from this country, not really concerned with this country at all. And also, I think it’s fair to say, you know, someone who should hang his head in shame, given a lifetime of destruction that he’s helped bring to our country, but described these policies as anti-American. So, obviously, it takes a lot of balls for someone who has no interest in the United States to accuse someone whose whole orientation is helping the United States of being anti-American. But I’ve noticed this a lot. If you raise the question like, what are we getting out of this, you know, the endless war cycle. We’re getting bankruptcy, obviously, but like, is this good for us? They’ll accuse you. You know, the Constitution kids and also non-American will accuse that wing will accuse you of being somehow woke. And you’re like left wing for you asking these questions. Have you noticed this?

Curt Mills [00:09:30] Yeah. I mean, interesting that you raise some of these figures like we’re going to see all night.

Curt Mills [00:09:35] I’d like to. Hope.

Tucker [00:09:37] There’s no more repulsive group in American life than the people who continue to push death and bankruptcy on the United States. I think that’s fair.

Curt Mills [00:09:47] Can’t recover from death.

Tucker [00:09:48] No, you can’t.

Curt Mills [00:09:49] Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:09:50] So, I mean, I think that they’re hoping that Americans don’t do the reading, hoping or hoping that they’re hoping that Americans read ex-post. Yeah. They’re hoping that Americans watch random cable news hosts. That they’re zoned out and they hear they have, you know, let’s say they have a positive view of, you know, certain aspects of of America’s role in the Middle East. And they start tar and feathering people on the Internet and that there’s no push back on it. At the same time.

Tucker [00:10:25] I have noticed this is because it’s so over the top rather than look, I think a lot of these positions are legitimate. I disagree with them. You know, none of these people are smart people. I know almost all of them. Yeah. And they could make like a straightforward case for their position. Like, here’s why we should affect regime change in Iran or here’s why we should kill Putin. I mean, maybe there’s a case to be made for that, but they never make the case. They attack anyone who stands in their way in the most brutal and dishonest ways. They have no limits at all in their behavior at all. And I just find that repugnant and corrosive. Even if I agree with them. I’d be against that. Like, what is that?

Curt Mills [00:11:03] This is guerilla warfare. The win at any costs.

Tucker [00:11:06] Win at any costs. I know I’m jumping my eyes, I’m exercised. I just watch what’s happening to me called Steve Witkoff Dynasty Book Office. Okay. So he’s a friend of Trump’s. He’s a real estate guy from Newark. I happen to know him. Just four.

Curt Mills [00:11:19] Other people already know him.

Tucker [00:11:20] Pretty well. You know, just personally, I don’t know a ton about his views. I don’t sense that, you know, we probably don’t agree on foreign policy in some ways. But he was tasked by Trump, as you know, to go over, in effect, some kind of cease fire between Israel and Hamas. And he did. And I don’t he’s anti-Israel. In fact, I know he’s not. Whatever that means. And he’s being attacked as somehow an agent of the Islamic Republic of Qatar and like anti Israel. Steve itckoff.

Curt Mills [00:11:53] Yeah.

Tucker [00:11:54] And I happen to really like Steve along for the key. So just like a great guy actually. And he’s really tough and good guy. If you had dinner with him, you’d like him, trust me. But I’m just blown away by the dishonesty rather than, say, hasty work off like I disagree with you or whatever. It’s. He’s working for Qatar.

Curt Mills [00:12:11] No. What? He’s from, like, Long Island. What are you talking about?

Curt Mills [00:12:16] This is the higher profile. I mean, I mean, they’re hoping, again, that that Trump has learned nothing. They insult the president.

Tucker [00:12:23] But these people are disgusting. They’re liars. And like, if there’s one thing the country said too much of is lying, let’s just stop lying. Let’s just be honest.

Curt Mills [00:12:30] I agree. Yes, I.

Curt Mills [00:12:31] Agree. We’ve been corrupted.

Curt Mills [00:12:32] By lies.

Tucker [00:12:32] Completely. The country is about to collapse because of lies, and the people pushing endless war are one of the main vectors for that lying. Like because there’s just no reference point in reality at all. If Steve Witkoff is an agent of the Islamic Republic, then I just give up. Do you really.

Curt Mills [00:12:51] Mean. Yeah. No. Okay. Sorry. Lecture room.

Curt Mills [00:12:55] No, no, no, no. I mean, the work, I think, in some ways is what set the whole thing off. Right, Right. Most reasonable.

Tucker [00:13:02] Moderate person in the world. No, he’s not anti-Israel. He’s just tough.

Curt Mills [00:13:07] I think the work, I think, surprised both sides, though. I would note so. I think so. Obviously you knew him before. Yeah, it was in recent years. Okay. So I think in general, the open source intelligence to use a lame term, but like that I would say, is that the hawks, people who want to say go all the way on Iran did not expect Witkoff to be so pragmatic. And then additionally the realist and restraint camp also did not expect it. They did not accept all the all the reporting from, say, Israeli media, say, Haaretz or Times of Israel. Their work off went in there and sort of with both the incoming Trump administration and, you know, the remnants of the of the Biden administration for Prime Minister Netanyahu into some sort of deal, a deal that he had turned down six months ago in May of 2024, basically identical deal that threw most everybody in the loop for loop. And that has set off, as far as I can infer, a climate of hysteria within Israel itself, at least among the I’m not sure, Sir Netanyahu himself, but at least within the factions of his cabinet that are hard line as hell.

Curt Mills [00:14:23] Okay.

Tucker [00:14:23] So they disagree. You know, they’ve had to give a little. Everyone does in. All I’m saying is when you reach an agreement, everyone gets pinched because that’s just the nature of it.

Curt Mills [00:14:39] Right.

Tucker [00:14:40] And no one likes it, you know, But like tough. That’s what it is. And my read on Witkoff is that he’s just not super ideological. I think he’s pro-Israel. You know, it wouldn’t even question that, but I don’t think he’s an ideologue. He’s a he’s a self-made real estate guy who started with like a single apartment building in Washington Heights. He’s a tough human being.

Curt Mills [00:15:03] Yeah.

Tucker [00:15:04] And I think you need someone who’s practical and tough to affect a negotiation. You don’t want someone who’s captive to all kinds of theories. Trump says, Hey, Witkoff, get a peace deal. You know, get a ceasefire in an intermediate peace deal, a first step toward one. Yeah. And we’re like, okay. And he just shows up and he’s like, Hey.

Curt Mills [00:15:20] You, you. Yeah, you like, that’s what you want, I think.

Curt Mills [00:15:26] I think a lot of Israel was surprised by this. I mean. I mean. I mean this was lost in the absolute cacophony of 2020, 24. Really. But yes, like if you read I read the Israeli press daily and, you know, there were members of Netanyahu’s coalition. So these are members of Prime Minister Netanyahu, people who are not in his party, who are more hardline than him. And they were saying Trump’s really talking about this endless war stuff. This might be a problem. And this was back in October and September and August, and no one was paying attention because it was Brett Summer. And, you know, other things were going on. But this was coming. And the fact that they got it done not even before, not even during the transition itself, also surprised people.

Tucker [00:16:15] And so I’m sensing inflated expectations here. This is a foreign country, obviously an ally, a close ally, the closest ally, I think it’s fair to say. But a separate country. And so, you know, I think realistic expectations would be we get some of what we want. We don’t get everything we want because, you know, we’re not in charge of the United States.

Curt Mills [00:16:35] But okay, there’s there’s a tension here. I mean, so first, the relationship between the president of the United States and the prime minister of Israel is extremely unclear.

Tucker [00:16:47] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:16:47] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:16:48] I don’t think maybe only the two of them, you know, they’ve they have disagreed since at least 2020 over the election, but they probably disagreed beforehand over strikes in Iran. The last time you and I spoke publicly was over the Soleimani strike in January of 2020. And there was since then, reporting in the last five years has come out that the two of them disagreed over that Trump felt that the Israelis didn’t do their part. ET cetera, etc., etc.. So for years, for at least half a decade, the well has been poisoned between Trump and Netanyahu. Doesn’t mean the relationship is done, but there has been an atmosphere of mistrust. And while he’s had that.

Tucker [00:17:33] You know, I’ve watched closely and, you know, interviewed him more than once and, you know, for many.

Curt Mills [00:17:39] Yeah.

Tucker [00:17:39] For, you know what Moving on. 30 years. Yeah. Because he’s been in out of office and he said complicated relations with every president, you know.

Curt Mills [00:17:47] Yeah. I mean I think I think the key thing to understand for your listeners anyway is not. Turning this off because we’re getting into the the depths of Israeli politics here. But Netanyahu’s situation is unstable.

Curt Mills [00:17:58] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:18:00] A simple majority of Israelis want him out. They want him to resign. He does not want to resign because he resigns. He may go to prison. Right. And also. He’s been a power achiever for 30 years. And yes, I’ve noticed that people who do that often don’t quit. I think that’s fair. Yeah. Okay. So he doesn’t quit for both reasons of his freedom and. Yeah. You know, just live his life.

Curt Mills [00:18:25] Yeah. Yes. Okay. So he.

Tucker [00:18:27] Recognizable syndrome?

Curt Mills [00:18:28] I would say Yes.

Tucker [00:18:29] Not confined to Bebe is international.

Curt Mills [00:18:31] Yes, it.

Curt Mills [00:18:31] Is. Okay. So how does he not quit? It’s pretty clear that spectacular circumstances justify his presence is very similar, actually. I mean, there’s been comparisons between him and Churchill. It’s actually fair. Only in wartime can someone like Netanyahu at this point get a position. I get it. The war has to go on. So what war? So they have basically a deal with Hezbollah. I think it’s not like I think that is by far the least likely that they’re going to go back in there. They’re basically two options. One, once all the hostages are exchanged and they go back into Gaza.

Curt Mills [00:19:10] Okay. Or I guess one be Yes. To do the West Bank, which is already going on right now. Or two. What do.

Tucker [00:19:18] You mean? Do the West Bank.

Curt Mills [00:19:20] Evade it and exit? I mean.

Tucker [00:19:23] What about the people who live there? Like what happens to them?

Curt Mills [00:19:25] But Israel’s problem.

Tucker [00:19:28] You’re in the West Bank. I mean, what are you doing there? What is the point of the operation? You know.

Curt Mills [00:19:32] To annex the territory and build developments. I mean, this is this is I mean and, you know, the unstated thing is that through either export, these people will eliminate them. And so it’s pretty terrifying stuff. It’s not light stuff. This is not a light interview. And so the problem is the U.S. is the military underwriter of this. The Israelis probably can’t do this without us selling them weapons. And so while Americans are tuned out and not thinking about this kind of thing, our reputation overseas is one of arms dealer. And over time, that affects your children being able to travel abroad, that affects America’s reputation overseas. It’s dicey stuff.

Tucker [00:20:16] What caused 911, among other things. Right. So, yeah, it has effects for sure.

Curt Mills [00:20:20] Yeah. Right.

Curt Mills [00:20:21] Option two, you know, is Iran. Yeah. Which is which is, as I’ll just quote and I’ll quote the the hard line perspective itself. Is the head of the snake and the conception of the Israeli hard line and also the neoconservative right in the United States. Sure. And so Israel also can’t do Iran, in my view, and also in general assessments without the help of the United States is usually joint US Israeli airstrikes. Or even a solo invasion of Iran by the United States is the ultimate sort of fantasy.

Tucker [00:20:57] I’m going to need more coffee to proceed because you’re blowing my mind. …

Curt Mills [00:22:02] Easy.

Tucker [00:22:26] I think it’s really significant that he’s not a professional foreign policy figure. He hasn’t spent a career at the State Department or negotiating or doing bilaterals for his career. You know, he’s just a smart, tough, competent person who was charged with the task by the president and he got it done. And maybe we need.

Curt Mills [00:22:49] More of that. I mean.

Tucker [00:22:51] You know, there are certain statecraft that, you know, probably helpful to have experience in statecraft, But but some of it’s just pretty straightforward.

Curt Mills [00:22:58] Yeah. You get a ceasefire. Okay.

Curt Mills [00:23:00] Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, I think there hasn’t.

Tucker [00:23:02] Been any one from the State Department have done what Steve Acuff did.

Curt Mills [00:23:04] Do you think?

Curt Mills [00:23:06] No, especially without the without the president’s.

Curt Mills [00:23:08] Format or not. Yeah.

Tucker [00:23:10] But even if Trump had, like, called someone in and been like, okay, Mr.. Career diplomat, can you effect a cease fire?

Curt Mills [00:23:16] It’d be like, well, it’s very complicated. You know, it’s what comes of.

Tucker [00:23:20] The cease fire stop.

Curt Mills [00:23:22] No, it’s the same. I mean. I mean I mean like they international relations has been made into. They have to make it into, like, a pseudo science. Like.

Curt Mills [00:23:30] Exactly. Yeah. Smart. Exactly. Just like everything else. Yeah. Just like everything. Like journalism or. Yeah.

Tucker [00:23:37] Even education. But you can’t teach third grade without a master’s degree.

Curt Mills [00:23:41] Are you kidding? Yeah. So it’s just new. The second requirement is.

Tucker [00:23:43] Do you like third graders?

Curt Mills [00:23:44] Is nothing to do with your master’s degree.

Tucker [00:23:46] The whole thing is it’s absurd.

Curt Mills [00:23:48] Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:23:48] And then, you know, it’s the same thing of. Of academia, which is like people’s theses are increasingly more baroque and like nobody actually just.

Curt Mills [00:23:55] Mr. Obituary.

Curt Mills [00:23:56] Large things like the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or at least know it in a way that is applicable in power in real life. And I mean maybe things are changing now, but like also a lot of the foreign policy establishment, it’s different now in the second term but wouldn’t work at the first Trump term, wouldn’t work with their team. And I think that was to discredited the country. I think I think that was I think that did not serve the country well.

Tucker [00:24:22] Of course it didn’t serve the country well. We know the country hasn’t been served because look at the country. And so I think, you know, we can say of all players, they didn’t serve the country and include the media. And there have been times when I didn’t serve the country, like when I advocated for the Iraq war. I mean, we’re all culpable to some extent. But it’s just remarkable to me that people are continuing it. So now instead of telling us that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction or that Osama bin Laden attacked us for our freedoms or whatever the lie of the day was, the new idea is that Iran is, quote, the head of the snake. How many Americans have been killed by Iranian proxies in the United States over the last 20 years? Do you think.

Curt Mills [00:25:00] How many Americans in the United States.

Tucker [00:25:02] Have been killed by Iran sponsored.

Curt Mills [00:25:04] Terrorist? Zero.

Tucker [00:25:05] Right. Run zero. How many have died of fentanyl or these drugs whose precursors come from China?

Curt Mills [00:25:10] No, it’s.

Tucker [00:25:12] More than a million. More than a million? Well, Iran took over Iraq because we took out Saddam Hussein, as I said, in a majority Shiite country. I happened to be there for that. And even I, as a 33 year old moron, was like, wait a second, just a basic interest in demographics. Like, isn’t this going to go to Iran now?

Curt Mills [00:25:45] Yep. Anyway. Yes. Right. Right.

Tucker [00:25:49] But I just find it amazing that there’s been no public conversation about whether or not the United States should go to war with Iran. There’s been no case laid out, At least in 2002, they had the decency to lie to us in a pretty complicated, sophisticated way about weapons of mass destruction. Now it’s just like, shut up. You’re anti-American if you ask questions. And it feels like we’re moving toward a conflict with Iran. Is that a fair.

Curt Mills [00:26:16] I think we have been moving towards one. And, you know, I think the basically the biggest risk of a Democratic administration is a war with Russia. And the biggest risk of a Republican administration is a war with Iran. Yes. So my rule is always that’s why it’s more ethical to be a Republican, because at least the Iranians don’t have nukes yet. So that’s actually, like pretty close to my first principle. Like like just.

Curt Mills [00:26:41] Outright. We have simplified. Yes. Yes.

Curt Mills [00:26:43] But the Iran war would be still like the worst and like not something that we should pursue and look like. Foreign policy experts at this point will chime in on this conversation being like, well, that’s just so unrealistic this that we’re actually we want this is actually this ridiculous externality. But I think it is worth noting that we have done wars toppling governments throughout the region over over the last 25 years. So, number one, it’s happened very recently. Number two, it is kind of the explicit goal of the hard liners. And the hard liners keep moving the Overton Window in their direction. And so while this is perhaps not 100% certain, hardly there is a hard drive towards doing this and picking off Pentagon deputies and allowing leaders like Trump and Vance to be surrounded by hawks and no dissenting voices whatsoever.

Curt Mills [00:27:41] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:27:42] Is absolutely essential towards any road to war.

Tucker [00:27:46] And I have to say, the amount of calculated deception on the right. So all of a sudden, very wise who’s a leftist becomes a conservative because she’s against tranny ism or something. You know, every normal person is against that.

Curt Mills [00:28:02] Yeah. But, you know.

Tucker [00:28:03] It’s pretty obvious that the whole purpose of her organization, the Free Press and her career in journalism is to kind of soften up the right for war with Iran and and to attack anybody and its whole constellation of people or, you know, Neil Ferguson and all these kind of people who had weight to the project, but who really are all kind of paid to flak for war with Iran and attack anyone who’s not with the program. I felt the sting of this or I didn’t really understand how this worked. But then. You know, someone with like thoroughly moderate foreign policy views or only want war with anybody. I’m not against anybody. And all of a sudden you’re like, wow, you know, people are calling you anti-American.

Curt Mills [00:28:45] Well, there’s precedent for this. So what you just got I don’t know. I don’t know any of the people you described personally.

Curt Mills [00:28:50] But you’re saying like.

Tucker [00:28:51] There was you said the problem with voting Republican is you’re more likely to wind up with a war with Iran. And I agree with you, I’d much rather be worth around than war with Russia, but kind of don’t want either one. And it’s just interesting how the the groundwork. I just know because I’ve been in conservative media my whole life also, and all these new people and you’re like, Barry Weiss, are you really conservative or not at all? And what are you doing here? You’re trying to convince me that I’m not allowed to oppose a war with Iran or I’m going to be written out of the conservative movement or something.

Curt Mills [00:29:21] Okay. So a lot of people are comparing Trump to Reagan these days. Yeah. And I think it is an inaccurate comparison. But there are obviously are comparisons that are very different, me being serious in my position. So if you accept that Trump is the biggest cheese since Reagan. Yeah. On the Republican side, what happened in the Reagan years. So the neoconservatives, that is people who came from the left and moved to the right were very, very savvy, effective and reasonable at domestic policy. They were very, very good on the crime issues of the.

Curt Mills [00:29:56] Of the U.S..

Curt Mills [00:29:57] And their periodic periodicals. Gained currency because, hey, actually we should clean up the streets of New York, etc., etc., etc..

Tucker [00:30:05] Etc., etc.. I knew a lot of them and some of them were really smart, decent people too.

Curt Mills [00:30:11] Yeah.

Tucker [00:30:11] And by the way, some of their foreign policy views were not crazy at all. They were. They recognized the Soviet Union was evil, like the first generation neocons. Midge Dichter I mean, I kind of love them. Ejector. I don’t know. I mean, I don’t think that they were all nuts at all.

Curt Mills [00:30:25] Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:30:26] But by the 90s and 2000s. You know, if you believed in, you know, some crime enforcement in New York, you also had to believe towards the march towards regime change in Iraq. And so you know again, I don’t want to.

Tucker [00:30:41] Sound skipping that part of the buffet line. Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:30:44] You don’t go.

Tucker [00:30:45] But I will take the safe city and the thriving economy. I’m going to leave out the Forever War. Is that.

Curt Mills [00:30:49] Okay? Well, I think that is the the essential pitch of this new generation of neoconservatives mean, which of course, does not call itself that. But it is moderation on the social issues. Let’s turn down the volume. Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:31:00] And at the same time, over here in column space over here, a little all news item about what’s going on in the Red Sea and why the U.S. needs to care. And it’s a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. And it can go on for months and years and years and years. And all of a sudden, we super care about Houthis in Yemen. We super care about. Iran. And we have to underwrite a war in Israel until every single member from us is dead. And it’s just not clear that the US international, the US national interest is there to put it lightly.

Curt Mills [00:31:41] Yeah.

Tucker [00:31:41] And I guess what I object to is I mean, I’m never offended by people with different ideas. I’m never offended by someone who makes a sincere case, affirmative case for something that I disagree with. Okay. And by the way, maybe he’s right and I’m wrong. I’ve certainly been wrong a lot. The part where I get enraged is the bad faith.

Curt Mills [00:32:01] Yep.

Tucker [00:32:02] And so you ask questions like, Well, is this in our interest when you hate someone’s hate anybody? And I certainly don’t hate that. I certainly don’t hate that country. I like it a lot, actually.

Curt Mills [00:32:11] Yeah.

Tucker [00:32:12] But there’s no room for it. They don’t. They’re preventing discussion.

Curt Mills [00:32:16] Yeah.

Tucker [00:32:17] And and a lot of these people have the gall to describe themselves as, you know, warriors for free speech. Well, of course, free speech is the last thing they want. And they’ve gone out of their way to prevent any kind of open conversation about the most important topics in our collective life. So I’m just I’m just bothered by the lying. There’s too much lying, don’t you think?

Curt Mills [00:32:40] Absolutely.

Tucker [00:32:40] I would say. And by the way, I’ll even go further and say, having worked for Bill Kristol for five and a half.

Curt Mills [00:32:46] Years and Kristol, the editor of The Weekly Standard, that was was the absolute launching point magazine of the Iraq.

Tucker [00:32:52] War, for sure. And I was there. I mean, I started the very first day of the Weekly Standard, August 1st, 1995, 30 years ago. And I thought Bill Kristol, I still would say it was a great boss, you know, interesting, fun to talk to. Funny as hell. Obviously, I think he’s taken a really dark turn in his life, has been kind of a disaster and I feel bad for him. But one thing I’ll say about Bill Kristol circa 2000 is that he would make an actual case for his views. He would say we have to go in and take out Saddam for the following eight reasons. And you you’re right.

Curt Mills [00:33:25] And you said this in 95, 96, 97.

Tucker [00:33:28] I mean, I was there for all of that and I wasn’t paying super close attention because I was dumb and I was focused on other things and I was like, yeah, it’s a foreign policy hobbyhorse, you know, into that stuff. I’m not that into it. I don’t understand the stakes. I don’t really think anything actually when I was a kid. But I always admired and still admire his willingness and that generation’s willingness to to make their case, to write some paper. Here’s what we’re for. That is gone. And now it’s just like, can we censor the people? Can we call them names to the point where they get kicked off social media? So there’s no counterargument.

Curt Mills [00:34:01] Well, even Kristol himself has stopped writing.

Tucker [00:34:04] Well, he could never write. You know, he’s not a genius, I will say. But, you know, an affable, amusing person in meetings. And tireless, you know, And there are good things to be said about Bill Kristol. Obviously, I copy Nazi like a hundred times, but that’s kind of the point. And I’m not a Nazi. I’m not for the Nazis. I just don’t know. I’ve got different views. And that’s the turn that I’m really bothered.

Curt Mills [00:34:32] By.

Tucker [00:34:33] Is just the pure ad hominem. Attempted. That’s just an attempted censorship. Yeah. And and Barry White engages in that like relentlessly behind the scenes, using all kinds of proxies, some of whom I know. And I just want to say it out loud. I just want to say, this is this is deception here. Okay. So I hope people know that.

Curt Mills [00:34:55] I think it makes it impossible for the new president to do what he’s promised to do if he doesn’t solve this conundrum.

Tucker [00:35:03] Well, tell me what you mean.

Curt Mills [00:35:04] So, I mean, if the president wants to send troops to the US border and the and the president wants to rebuild the American economy and the president wants to focus on China. Yes. And the President wants the moral credibility to end the Russia-Ukraine war at some point.

Tucker [00:35:23] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:35:24] Expanding the war in the Middle East. Even with prolonged arms sales, corrodes his political capital.

Tucker [00:35:34] Who’s going to pay for that?

Curt Mills [00:35:35] The United States.

Tucker [00:35:37] Nobody. I mean.

Curt Mills [00:35:38] We literally.

Tucker [00:35:39] Are operating in the red to the tune of trillions of dollars, like how.

Curt Mills [00:35:43] Are you and.

Tucker [00:35:44] What world can we afford that?

Curt Mills [00:35:45] Well, it’s a very complex task.

Tucker [00:35:47] We don’t have any interesting community hospitals left.

Curt Mills [00:35:51] We have the reserve currency and we can keep writing debt until it causes an inflation crisis, which a lot of people thought would happen earlier and did not. And even our inflation crisis in the 2020s was mild by global standards. So accordingly, we’ve got plenty of room for the big enchilada, which is an a war.

Curt Mills [00:36:11] Right?

Tucker [00:36:12] Yeah. So this it just feels like a big deal.

Curt Mills [00:36:15] It’s a big.

Tucker [00:36:15] Deal to me. And it feels like it’s worth. I mean, it certainly if you comment on this, you do ask yourself, is it really worth it? You know, do I want to get into this? By the way, a lot of people I really like and I’m friends with violently disagree. And so you run the risk, which I really don’t want, of rupturing friendships over it. I just the last thing I want ever And and you think I maybe I should be quiet but it does seem like that’s a huge step. And at the very least, the public ought to understand that there are highly motivated people pushing us toward that. Do you think that we will participate in a military action against Iran?

Curt Mills [00:36:56] Well, the big question is right now. So there’s a new Iranian president. So the previous Iranian president died along with his foreign minister in a helicopter accident over the summer. Little mystery.

Tucker [00:37:07] Are you going to use air quotes or an accident or.

Curt Mills [00:37:09] I mean. A lot of things happened last year. It’s very possible. I mean, I don’t think you’re right. Everyone got killed by Iran. There are so many accidents.

Curt Mills [00:37:19] The Iranians, the Iranians, equipment, helicopter equipment is, to my understanding, is old. Yeah. And it is a rough part of the world. And it’s possible that it it’s likely that it just went down.

Curt Mills [00:37:30] Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:37:32] And again, I would say I would.

Tucker [00:37:34] Not fly in a helicopter with Iranian officials and was telling you that.

Curt Mills [00:37:38] Yeah, yeah. And again, if you think it was Israel, the Israelis not pretty pretty much pretty much took credit or didn’t deny all the other assassinations that occurred last year.

Tucker [00:37:48] You know, Hamas leadership.

Curt Mills [00:37:50] Etc., etc., etc..

Tucker [00:37:52] Just for the record, I try to suspend judgment because I know a lot about what countries do. And I do think it’s one thing I’ll say in support of Israel. I do think that it is. You know, it isn’t fair to just single out Israel and say they’re doing naughty stuff like lots of people are doing naughty stuff. That’s just a fact. My only. You know, the only point where I would feel like I want to say something is if the United States gets sucked into it. It’s turn that now. Now we’re talking about our interests, my country or my family’s from. And I think it’s fair to speak up then.

Curt Mills [00:38:25] Yeah. So I guess maybe the 2025 zoom out, you would say there was an election in Iran right afterwards.

Tucker [00:38:33] Yes.

Curt Mills [00:38:35] Okay.

Curt Mills [00:38:35] A lot of people disagree with our perspective. We’ll disagree with this term. But the more moderate candidate people think there are no moderates within the regime, but the the less hardcore candidate won. Yeah, the first time this has happened since Trump left the Iran deal. And this person, it is not clear how much power he has within the system. The supreme leader is old. It’s not clear how old. And there will be a succession crisis to succeed the supreme leader should he die. Yes. So it is this weird situation where every time Iran is in a crisis and their crisis right now, they’re an electricity crisis by all reporting. Again, don’t know if we can trust all the reporting, but they can’t keep the lights on in Tehran fully. And what will they do? And so every time Iran is at a decision point, there is a focus between what I will call the moderates and the hardliners within their government. The hardliners want to go for the bomb. They think we can’t trust anybody.

Tucker [00:39:38] Right.

Curt Mills [00:39:39] We we need to get the bomb. They also recently signed a mutual, you know, a defense pact of just short of mutual defense pact, but a security arrangement with the Russians. So they seem to have a bunker mentality right now. If US intelligence or Israeli intelligence or Western intelligence assesses that they are going for the bomb in a real way so they can either be true or false, but if they assess it, then there will be severe pressure on the new administration to do airstrikes on Iran. Again, if.

Curt Mills [00:40:17] I look, I.

Tucker [00:40:18] Don’t want Iran to get the bomb and or anyone to get the bomb. I’m against the bomb. Okay. But I was around when Pakistan got the bomb.

Curt Mills [00:40:24] Yeah.

Tucker [00:40:25] And Pakistan is, you know, a country with a lot of wonderful people in it, kind of a great country in a lot of ways. We spent from our time there. However, the government of Pakistan.

Curt Mills [00:40:35] Is arguably scarier than us.

Curt Mills [00:40:36] Yeah. You think harbored.

Tucker [00:40:38] Osama bin Laden, etc.. ISI has been, you know, really a source of disorder in South Asia for a long time. And they’ve exported nuclear technology, including to North Korea. So no one’s ever said anything about that. Like that’s not a crisis that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has the bomb. I don’t really get it. I mean, why was that not a crisis? Why do we do nothing to do? Nothing to stop that?

Curt Mills [00:41:02] I guess it occurred basically when the US was still crazy, pro Pakistan over India. And it was that was.

Tucker [00:41:11] A bad bet, by.

Curt Mills [00:41:12] The way. It was a Nixonian event. Actually. He he really he really didn’t like Indira Gandhi. It was basically.

Curt Mills [00:41:17] Okay. Well, it basically was I think we can.

Tucker [00:41:19] Say longitudinally, that was a bad.

Curt Mills [00:41:20] Bet.

Curt Mills [00:41:21] He just didn’t like one person and it didn’t matter.

Tucker [00:41:23] No, that was like betting on Wang computers over Apple. Like it just kind of didn’t turn out.

Curt Mills [00:41:28] Yeah.

Curt Mills [00:41:28] So I am not holding a Wang in my cell.

Tucker [00:41:33] But. But the point is.

Curt Mills [00:41:36] I want to cut that. This is so low. So keeping the weighing in. Yes. Look, I all I’m my.

Curt Mills [00:41:43] Father’s software and computers.

Curt Mills [00:41:44] Did you make it personal? No. Well, then, no.

Curt Mills [00:41:47] This is at one point the top sales in the country.

Curt Mills [00:41:50] When computers.

Tucker [00:41:50] Your father sold some wings.

Curt Mills [00:41:52] Yes. Is this.

Curt Mills [00:41:53] Actually going? It’s actually good. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Our eyepiece.

Tucker [00:41:58] Is hitting. Look, all I’m saying is it’s important to maybe dial back a little bit on the moral outrage and assess the world as it is. Assess what you can do. You know, create a hierarchy of priorities. Like we don’t want other countries to get nuclear weapons. I think that’s I’m with the neocons 100% on that. But, you know, in a complicated world that we don’t actually control.

Curt Mills [00:42:21] Right.

Tucker [00:42:21] What will you know, what can we do to the limits of our power, given a lot of other factors like our domestic to our economy, the needs of our people, like you can’t do everything.

Curt Mills [00:42:31] That’s all I’m saying.

Curt Mills [00:42:32] Yeah. No, I mean, so I think Trump should complete the work of his first term, which is he revoked the JCPoA, the Iran deal, and he should do a Trump Iran deal there.

Tucker [00:42:43] She’s sending Witkoff over to do that.

Curt Mills [00:42:44] Yeah. So so we’re the aforementioned not only did what he did with the Israelis, he was promoted for it per reporting. There’s not been confirmed, to my understanding, by the transition or the White House. But per the F.T. and I believe another outlet where Khan is getting, quote, the Iran file within the Trump universe, that’s as much power as the president wants to give it. But as of filming, his role is expanding. And if Trump wants a lasting legacy of peace and prosperity, there needs to be an accommodation with the de facto government of Iran.

Curt Mills [00:43:23] So if he of.

Tucker [00:43:24] Course, there does this is just in. This is totally insane. It’s counter to our interests, I guess, is.

Curt Mills [00:43:29] What I would say.

Tucker [00:43:31] If you were Trump and you say to Steve Witkoff, Hastie would cough, go get a, you know, a cease fire in place. And he comes back like 20 minutes later with a cease fire, wouldn’t you say.

Curt Mills [00:43:42] Okay, we like that pace pick. Wouldn’t you send him to Iran? I would. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I know. I mean, I think I yeah, I mean I mean and this is actually something both Trump and Obama, who apparently get along now at least perfunctorily. Yeah. Agreed on.

Tucker [00:43:58] Well, they both just like Michelle I.

Curt Mills [00:44:00] Think.

Curt Mills [00:44:00] So they remember Obama on the debate stage in eight and he was he was he was how down for this? Whatever you think of Barack Obama said we should meet with the Iranian leaders face to face and Trump did similar maneuvers.

Tucker [00:44:17] Yeah I was sure why wouldn’t.

Curt Mills [00:44:18] You with Kim Jong un, etc., etc.. And again.

Curt Mills [00:44:21] We sucking up to.

Tucker [00:44:22] Dictators.

Curt Mills [00:44:23] Shut up.

Curt Mills [00:44:24] I mean, what I mean was, was North Korea policy more stable from 2017 to 20 21 or 20 21 to 2025? I mean, there was.

Tucker [00:44:31] 25 years of this nonsense killing dictators and watching their countries become more chaotic and more dangerous to the United States and the world, that we have any obligation to listen to people who chirp like that.

Curt Mills [00:44:42] Now and shut up to link it.

Tucker [00:44:45] Anything.

Curt Mills [00:44:46] Actually.

Curt Mills [00:44:47] Some of it. So we started this conversation with, you know, sort of the campaign against these cadres that are now serving century hacks. If the people that are leading it, as far as I can infer, are oftentimes many of the people that were behind the original rock war and so.

Curt Mills [00:45:03] Well yeah yeah.

Curt Mills [00:45:04] So this may seem obvious.

Tucker [00:45:05] I’m 55, so this is driving me completely insane. I thought after we discovered that the pretext, the war was a lie, that those people would, I don’t know, done ashes, I think sackcloth and go like sit on a pillar for ten years.

Curt Mills [00:45:19] I think a lot of Americans assume that they did. So we do this for a living.

Curt Mills [00:45:22] He didn’t pay a lot in the.

Tucker [00:45:23] World Bank and they still run the State Department. Yeah. And Toria Nuland, who was architect of the Iraq war, was an architect of the Ukraine war like this, it just doesn’t end.

Curt Mills [00:45:31] But but most Americans have real jobs and don’t know this. And so these people are disguised or shrouded from public view, and they are still quite effective at driving home an agenda. In fact, I would assume they will win absent pushback.

Tucker [00:45:49] And they’ll definitely win ups and push back. 100%.

Curt Mills [00:45:53] Yeah. So there are there are still if I want an interview.

Curt Mills [00:45:55] Yeah, there’s still has Remnick and even if even if they’re a minority government, so to speak.

Tucker [00:46:02] Yeah. And and I, I’m because I’m, I spent my life in the media. I’m very kind of fixated on their enablers, their agents in the American news media. And one of them who’s working has been working for years on their behalf on behalf of permanent Washington, the foreign policy establishment. Every bad idea is Jennifer Griffin at Fox, the Pentagon reporter who is now, you know, basically texting Domino. Is that the Michael Domino?

Curt Mills [00:46:33] Yeah.

Tucker [00:46:33] Is, you know, running around on behalf of, you know, her sources at the Pentagon doing their bidding, trying to torpedo these guys because the permanent staff doesn’t want to be challenged on anything. And okay, you know, there’s a role for that kind of behavior. It’s called lobbying. But it’s a little crazy that, like, a supposed news reporter would be acting like that. I’m not guessing this is a fact. She’s doing that right now and has been doing that kind of thing for as long as I’ve been paying attention, like a couple couple decades. How does that continue?

Curt Mills [00:47:08] Yeah, I don’t know her personally, but what I was saying, I do know the role of most Pentagon reporters has always struck me since I’ve done this as extremely hierarchical. I mean.

Tucker [00:47:19] What do you mean by her?

Curt Mills [00:47:20] It almost felt like the reporters worked for the Pentagon.

Curt Mills [00:47:22] Well, of course they yeah.

Curt Mills [00:47:23] So, I mean, the only place that I’ve worked that had a Pentagon correspondent and that was only where you stayed in the room.

Tucker [00:47:31] And isn’t this a democracy where we have civilian command of the armed forces and the entire federal government works for the population of the country, its voters, its citizens, its constituents and shareholders now. There’s no sense of that whatsoever in Washington at all.

Curt Mills [00:47:51] Yeah. It’s like.

Tucker [00:47:51] What are you doing here?

Curt Mills [00:47:52] I think it’s fast moving. I mean, I mean, you didn’t see criticisms or skepticism of the military from the right until the very last few years, including from the new president. Including from organs of conservative media. I think it started with with Mark Milley, but also the sort.

Curt Mills [00:48:10] Of some.

Tucker [00:48:11] Of us were out of the fourth.

Curt Mills [00:48:12] Grade. I know. But but in public.

Curt Mills [00:48:14] It was.

Tucker [00:48:14] Considered a fringe position is now.

Curt Mills [00:48:17] Fringe.

Curt Mills [00:48:18] Yeah.

Tucker [00:48:19] You know, I just refer you back to the pivot point in American politics in my lifetime, which was the 2016 debate in Greenville, South Carolina, where Donald Trump, home of the highest percentage of military veterans of any state, famously, and Donald Trump came out against the Iraq war and all the Dumbo’s at the channel I work for and in Washington like, he’s.

Curt Mills [00:48:37] Lost it now. He’ll never get the nomination.

Tucker [00:48:39] He’s offended all the veterans and of course, all the guys whose lives were destroyed fighting these wars, not on behalf of the United States, not to the benefit of the United States. They were filled with many emotions frustration, shame, rage, sadness. And they immediately. Knew what he was talking about and no one in DC.

Curt Mills [00:49:00] I think he just performed his polling.

Curt Mills [00:49:02] So like he was he was polling a certain. He was ahead. And the Bush family came in. That’s when it was it was the last stand for for Mr. Jeb. In February of 2016. And George W Bush campaigned finally for Jeb. And it was like we got to keep in the race. We’re going to make our stand. And he did. The big fat mistake. That is Iraq debate. And I think Trump is up 10 or 15. I think he won by over 20 in that debate doing that. But it was it was it was something like that. He was was right.

Tucker [00:49:33] Before the primary.

Curt Mills [00:49:34] Was over the polling. So not only did he not go down and still won, he went up and then quickly triumphed.

Tucker [00:49:40] That was the moment when I was just, you know, whatever his flaws, I was for Trump, because here was a guy telling a real truth, a hard truth that no one wanted him to tell and was rewarded for it. And I just felt like that was that’s consistent with my principles and beliefs, which is you want to tell the truth and a healthy country rewards people who tell the truth, not people who I.

Curt Mills [00:50:02] This is cynical bet, though. I would say that. And it’s a cynical bet on Trump and it’s a cynical bet on Americans. And it’s a cynical bet on Republicans and independents, which is I’ll just I just it was this is the actual language of center, left or left wing media. It’s a cult. And once the cult leader leaves, we can just go back to 2005 and implant the same old free trade, open borders.

Curt Mills [00:50:34] Maybe.

Curt Mills [00:50:34] Analyst neoconservatism. And actually, the people that are driving the opposition to these selections in the Pentagon agree with President Trump’s critics in spirit and in practice.

Tucker [00:50:52] You know, it’s an interesting analysis. I mean, it’s like MSNBC’s level dumb person analysis, but it’s also like a real analysis. And there is a sense in which devotion to Trump has a religious quality to him, that’s undeniable. I was just in D.C. for the inauguration. I can confirm that. And there are a lot of reasons for that. I you know, I think a lot of voters feel like Trump is the only person who cares about them. He’s their only option. And so they’re on board regardless, because where else are they going? And I think I think that’s true, A, and B, I think that’s a reflection of like how badly the leadership of the country has failed. People will take anything other than that. But I also think saying true things out loud changes history. I think that’s the lesson of history. The only people who actually change history are not the ones who marshal the biggest armies, but the ones who speak the truth out loud. I think it’s a holy act. I think it’s a transformative act. And all of history is the story of that act, actually. And sometimes it you know, it takes centuries for the consequences to unfold. But they do. It’s inevitable. It changes everything, won’t you? That’s why there’s such a almost a crazed attempt to shut down people from speaking. Why? Speaking? They don’t care about violence. They care about talking because they understand correctly that that’s what matters over time. Right? So once Trump has said all this stuff. There’s kind of no going back.

Curt Mills [00:52:13] No.

Tucker [00:52:13] Did you think I mean, that’s my view. I don’t know if.

Curt Mills [00:52:15] I don’t know. No, I don’t I don’t agree with the cynical, but I think it’s a bad bet. Yes. Which is why the tactics are increasingly hysterical and marginal.

Curt Mills [00:52:24] But we’re we’re.

Tucker [00:52:24] Robbed of like a real debate. I mean, I don’t know, you know, if it’s if you think it’s so important to kill the leaders of Iran and get into a full scale war with a real country, which Iran is, which is part of a real coalition.

Curt Mills [00:52:38] They won’t.

Curt Mills [00:52:39] Say full scale. They’ll say, let.

Curt Mills [00:52:40] Me just.

Curt Mills [00:52:41] Say that the ayatollah has to go. And it’s very important to use as scary words as possible is hold the mullahs, the Islamic Republic, emphasize, you know, and again, like basically the bin Laden, whose dad runs a country, even though he’s different ethnicity and a different religion. And so it doesn’t really matter. You’re stupid and you can’t do this again. And like they won’t say an invasion. But again, some of the people pushing this stuff didn’t see an invasion in 1996. They said if they laid this off in the ground.

Tucker [00:53:19] Floor debate on it, I guess that’s the point.

Curt Mills [00:53:21] It wasn’t a debate. I mean, it’s a.

Tucker [00:53:22] Little harder here, too, because on the question of Russia, it’s been surprisingly effective for them to just dismiss all criticism as sponsored by Putin. Like, you don’t think it’s a good idea to prop up.

Curt Mills [00:53:35] Speed is very.

Tucker [00:53:35] Important. This one’s key government. You’re a Putin puppet or whatever.

Curt Mills [00:53:40] You want someone to do something.

Tucker [00:53:41] Can you really call like a white American Christian guy a puppet of the mullahs?

Curt Mills [00:53:46] Probably not. Like, I don’t think that works, right, does it? Because they’re trying it with Steve Witkoff. You’re a you’re a tool of cutter.

Curt Mills [00:53:57] Yes. You’re referring to. So the.

Curt Mills [00:53:58] Shiites, I.

Tucker [00:54:00] Don’t think as a rhetorical matter, it’s quite as easily.

Curt Mills [00:54:03] Addressed the actual allegations. I mean, so we’re kind of I believe Turkey is a real estate firm, took some sort of investment from Qatar. All right. So, first of all, I would say throughout the Trump entourage, a lot of them have worked with Gulf states. And far as I’m concerned, Intel, the real estate business, is rife with investments from Gulf states. And then additionally, as far as I’m aware, this is hardly that man’s love for domestic.

Tucker [00:54:28] I mean, you can’t buy an apartment in New York because there’s so much Chinese money in the residential real estate markets alike. Okay. So the argument is, what? You’re only allowed to invest in your own companies country’s real estate. Okay. Let’s start here. Let’s ban foreign investment in our real estate markets. No, that’s anti-capitalist. Just the whole thing doesn’t make sense. What are they saying?

Curt Mills [00:54:50] What? Well, I’m.

Curt Mills [00:54:52] With the Khazar argument specifically. I mean, I think it’s an unusual place. It was supposed to be the eighth emirate. Know it is separate from the UAE. It is the most conservative of those Emirates, I would say, at least in terms of the government. They have a perspective. They spend money on media. They spend money on press junkets. They have an influence operation, no question. But the idea that this small jetting, you know, largely dependent.

Curt Mills [00:55:24] You know.

Curt Mills [00:55:25] Peninsula controls U.S. foreign policy, hook, line and sinker, top to bottom. If you think that I don’t think.

Curt Mills [00:55:37] You’re experts, I mean, I do think it’s areas it’s.

Tucker [00:55:39] Worth having an honest. I’ve never seen one. There’s never has been one. But an honest conversation about foreign influence on American policy. Think that’s a totally legitimate topic. And, you know, we’ve kind of done a lot of lying and pretending, for example, that Russia has undue influence over American foreign policies. It’s absurd. But but why not have that conversation, too? Are there are there foreign countries that exert influence on American foreign policy whose interests supersede those of American citizens when in the minds of policymakers and, you know, there are some of those, what how would we rank Qatar? You know, in terms of its influence. Maybe. Maybe not in the top three.

Curt Mills [00:56:20] Yeah, I know.

Tucker [00:56:21] Right. So just having lived in D.C., this whole conversation is, like, so infuriatingly false and just silly. I mean, are they running until operations against us? Are a lot of Qatar surveillance and Washington on a Qatar agents running around the Willard Hotel? I don’t think so.

Curt Mills [00:56:43] Well, maybe it’s.

Curt Mills [00:56:45] Very well discussed.

Curt Mills [00:56:47] Like, what are you talking about?

Tucker [00:56:48] I mean, our country’s doing that. Are they hacking the Pentagon’s mainframes? I don’t think. China is doing that. Yeah. Right. Okay. So, yeah.

Curt Mills [00:56:56] I mean.

Curt Mills [00:56:56] Making the allegation, though, is a kind of armor, though. It makes you sound informed. It makes you seem like a sort of a spymaster in, you know, like, I know something you don’t. I’m. I’m more serious than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. Like. Like, let’s not have a conversation. And it’s very anti-democratic. Small d. It is. It is. It is not agreeing. Disagree. It is not saying we have different values and, you know, shaking each other, hand walking out of the room. It is it is shutting down the spirit of the system.

Tucker [00:57:27] So that’s exactly the complaint that I have. And that’s the problem that I have with very wastes. Problem I have with Jen Griffin is the problem I have with The Washington Post. And just so much of the media coverage of foreign policy is based on insinuation and like the cruelest character destroying insinuations that you’re not loyal to your own country. You know that I’m too.

Curt Mills [00:57:53] Rich for the biggest.

Tucker [00:57:55] Ego, man. They go right for the face. And I just think that that’s beneath a great nation like ours. I think it’s beneath any decent person to be. But if you have evidence of someone selling out his country, tell me what it is. But to start with that, to accuse Steve Witkoff of being a tool of Qatar.

Curt Mills [00:58:13] It’s so over the top.

Tucker [00:58:15] I just feel like it’s important to call out to people doing it and say, You’re disgusting, we’re not listening to you anymore. You have no influence except that that you project through aggression and threats and like. We’re not we’re not playing along.

Curt Mills [00:58:28] And I think a lot.

Curt Mills [00:58:29] Of it is effective in Republican politics because, you know. So you were there for the inauguration I observed a week ago. And, you know, I’ve always observed that is usually when I meet someone from a red state like red state, Oklahoma, Alabama, it’s often the first time in Washington, D.C.. Yes. It’s very like a Roman province visiting Rome for the first. Totally. And I’m.

Tucker [00:58:55] Here from.

Curt Mills [00:58:55] Gaul. Yeah. Show me around.

Curt Mills [00:58:57] Yeah. And yeah, versus I would say blue state America actually has a look. The coasts have a lot more familiarity with D.C.. Yes. Back and forth, etc., etc.. So when they hear the argument going on in the capital, there’s actually a de facto trust there that might be not as much there on the Democratic side. There’s actually there’s actually a more jaundiced cynicism on the Democratic side. There was less effective.

Curt Mills [00:59:25] They assume that the.

Curt Mills [00:59:27] Despite it all, despite all the failures that you’ve announced that you’ve reported on fairly tirelessly, they assume that the people in D.C. know what they’re doing. And I’m not sure that’s the greatest default assumption.

Curt Mills [00:59:40] Well.

Tucker [00:59:40] I mean, I think the track record is pretty speaks conclusively.

Curt Mills [00:59:45] I mean, look.

Curt Mills [00:59:46] Respectfully to the president. I mean, Donald Trump, again, is the only US president who has was not a general or a former statewide official or federal official to get the presidency. And with all due respect to the president, a healthy country doesn’t elect someone like that. It had that level of outsider, that level of outsider.

Curt Mills [01:00:11] Could.

Curt Mills [01:00:11] Only exist within a polity that was deeply sick. And I think he knows that. I think he recognizes that. And the fact that the capital doesn’t imbibe that lesson, I think they’re reviving a little bit more. But it’s like.

Curt Mills [01:00:29] I mean, it’s still bizarre.

Curt Mills [01:00:30] Ten years on. I mean, Trump, June 2015. So in June this year, ten years of Trump, you know, longer than Obama at this point, the Trump era in spirit, I mean, length, it’s like, well, maybe there’s something wrong with this country, but it’s like a 5% recognition. It’s not a it’s not a 95%.

Tucker [01:00:48] I think national I mean, first of all, I agree completely. And I wrote a piece at the very beginning of this whole saga, almost ten years.

Curt Mills [01:00:53] Trump is shocking, vulgar and.

Curt Mills [01:00:55] Right.

Tucker [01:00:56] Well, yeah, he he’s winning because you failed. Simple, you know, obvious. Anyway, I don’t think he gets it. But I also think at this point, Trump is the most powerful president, certainly since Roosevelt.

Curt Mills [01:01:09] Interesting.

Tucker [01:01:10] And the potential for, you know, achieving his promises is really high. America has greater problems than its had since the Great Depression, maybe even bigger than it had then. And we have a chance to address them. Probably not solve all of them, but make some headway on things that could help Americans. Sealing the border, stopping the chaos, just taking a breather so we can figure out how to fix the country. And the only thing that could derail that is, is another foreign war.

Curt Mills [01:01:36] Can’t do it with this stuff. It is an actual choice.

Tucker [01:01:40] It’s an actual.

Curt Mills [01:01:41] We cannot do the border if we do the Middle East.

Curt Mills [01:01:44] So you start, what, 200,000 people?

Tucker [01:01:46] You’re dying of drug loads and no one said anything about it. And endless lectures about Ukraine. And it’s no disrespect to the Ukrainians who I really feel sorry for, but like, that’s so unbelievable that that happened. It’s like a bad dream. And now we’ve woken up from the dream and we have this chance. And I’m sorry. I just you know, with respect to Barry White and Jan Griffin, you can’t do that to us again. It’s just not going to. Not going to go without a fight this time. We have to reorient toward our own interests. That’s no disrespect to any other country, to our allies, who we are well and will help the extent we can. But like the idea that we’re responsible for all these other countries when we’re dying here, not us.

Curt Mills [01:02:25] Is that is.

Tucker [01:02:27] That a radical position? That’s my actual position in my heart. That’s my actual position.

Curt Mills [01:02:30] I agree. But it’s very upsetting not only to leaders of some foreign countries. And this is not just the Middle East. We didn’t even talk about Russia, Ukraine, But like I mean, that perspective is obviously very, very relevant for extricating the United States out of the Russia-Ukraine war. And almost every European capital is unhappy with that. And, you know, you can have a conversation with a nice Danish person and you might agree on immigration or trade or or wine, but you mention like, hey, I’m not really sure the United States should be underwriting a quagmire in Ukraine and like the conversation shuts down. I mean, it is stunning.

Tucker [01:03:10] Well, they’re hell bent on suicide, the Western Europeans and not the Eastern Europeans or Central Europeans, but the Western Europeans are, you know, have decided to kill themselves. And it’s it’s almost like if someone’s standing on a bridge or in a window of a skyscraper and you try to talk them back in, it’s it’s hard. And who knows why that happened. I think there’s a supernatural element at work as my personal view. But whatever you think the cause is, that’s what it is. You destroy it. You blow up Nord Stream, destroy the German economy, and you’re not allowed to say anything about it in Germany. I don’t know that we can help you at that point. You know what I mean? Like, if you’re that intent on self harm, that anxious to destroy your own civilization, make it impossible for your children to live there, then you’re killing yourself. You can’t help someone just want to help himself. Like, go ahead and jump Then that kind of that’s how I feel. But just from an American perspective, like all of this has been bad for us, there’s no way to pretend otherwise except to launch into some very moral lecture about dictatorships and Winston Churchill and Neville Chamberlain. So let’s just shut up, okay?

Curt Mills [01:04:13] The Churchill things, really, it’s played out.

Tucker [01:04:16] It’s played out. I mean, it’s played out in.

Curt Mills [01:04:19] There’s a there’s a there’s a gamble that some of this stuff isn’t played out, though. I mean, there’s there’s a gamble that that I mean, I think people have this country has a generational problem. Right. And the generations don’t get along. I think that.

Tucker [01:04:35] For good reason.

Curt Mills [01:04:36] Yeah. And I think there’s just a bet that a lot of the voters that made the decisions in the 1920s are dumb and don’t care about their kids future and will vote for the exact same thing.

Curt Mills [01:04:51] Clearly don’t. Yeah sorry.

Curt Mills [01:04:52] And will exert pressure on the new administration to do the same thing. And I think there’s a there’s a bat. The the president is a desperate, cynical man who will do whatever it takes when he’s pressured. And I think the early evidence is that it’s untrue. I mean, I don’t I mean, the the the.

Tucker [01:05:13] Evidence is that Trump is less cynical than even his supporters thought he was. I think that’s the truth.

Curt Mills [01:05:18] I mean, there’s there’s I do want to discuss the Pompeo Brian Hook stuff.

Tucker [01:05:25] I would I was just reading the the very wise editorial about how pulling Pompeo’s.

Curt Mills [01:05:30] What she said and read it.

Curt Mills [01:05:32] It’s a great choice. It’s a betrayal of Trump’s promises like.

Curt Mills [01:05:37] That with a free press, right?

Tucker [01:05:39] Yeah. That you can’t you’re not allowed. You are required to pay for Mike Pompeo security detail. And I will just say point blank, as someone who has faced greater physical threats than Mike Pompeo, I can promise you that I you know, if I have security, I pay for it myself. Like, why does Mike Pompeo as a private citizen, get to stick me with the bill for his security detail? Like, how does that work? Very wise. And the point is that Mike Pompeo is a faithful servant of the kind of ideas that she is here to push on the rest of us, and therefore, he will be defended at all costs. But but like, let’s just be honest about what’s going on anyway. Sorry. Yeah.

Curt Mills [01:06:16] I mean, details roll off. The government doesn’t usually advertise it.

Tucker [01:06:20] Everyone’s got a detail to foresee as a detail.

Curt Mills [01:06:22] Yeah.

Tucker [01:06:23] Yeah, because he’s in my dog park in Washington. I hear about it.

Curt Mills [01:06:26] I think the interesting thing. So it’s very easy to just glaze over. Trump fighting with officials. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, sort of the other example of this is Trump versus Bolton. And we talk about that and it’s fine, but it’s kind of over, right? It’s not in the mix and or at least of Trump and like.

Tucker [01:06:43] But he’s still got bits of egg and his mustache and I don’t have a cell anymore, so I can’t tell him. But he needs to fix that.

Curt Mills [01:06:49] Yeah I.

Curt Mills [01:06:49] So Pompeo and Hook I mean.

Curt Mills [01:06:55] Look tell.

Tucker [01:06:55] Us who they are.

Curt Mills [01:06:56] Mike Yeah. So Mike Pompeo was the former secretary of state, former CIA director, former Kansas congressman, former West Point valedictorian.

Tucker [01:07:05] Harvard graduate.

Curt Mills [01:07:06] Harvard Law graduate.

Tucker [01:07:07] Joseph Accuser.

Curt Mills [01:07:09] One can try. I’m just. I can make you do.

Tucker [01:07:11] The whole CV here. Okay? Right.

Curt Mills [01:07:12] So. And he was.

Tucker [01:07:15] I’m so bitchy. I’m so sorry I said that.

Curt Mills [01:07:18] It’s beneath.

Tucker [01:07:19] Me. I shouldn’t have said that.

Curt Mills [01:07:20] The. The Bolton Trump feud is all the. The disagreement with Pompeo is potentially quite new. And so by all available information, Pompeo was in the mix for secretary of defense, most likely in the days after the election, so much so that his son, Donald Trump Jr intervened in a sort of online campaign and, you know, other allies within that milieu stopped both Pompeo and the former UN ambassador and South Carolinian governor Nikki Haley from getting administration posts.

Tucker [01:07:57] I had heard about that.

Curt Mills [01:07:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tucker [01:07:59] Pompeo Patriotic Americans rallied, as they did in Boston in the 18th century to act on behalf of their nation at some personal risk. But they did it anyway. Unsung heroes. One of the.

Curt Mills [01:08:13] Pompeo’s former deputies, Brian Hook, who ran something called the Iran Study Group and had various other portfolios and titles at the State Department. He’s actually someone Pompeo inherited from Rex Tillerson, his predecessor. He kept them on–Brian Hook at various points throughout the transition in the last 100 days, was reported to be running the State Department’s transition at some point then was rumors again, rumors of just rumor. I don’t I don’t post about it. I don’t tweeted out. I don’t write about it. But it was rumored to have been fired. Very unclear. Trump in the days leading up to him taking the Oval Office oath, I. Issued essentially an enormous denunciation, a fatwa against Mr. Hawk. Extraordinary to say not only is this guy not in the mix, hate him, and he said that. So that that occurred. And then additionally, both Hook and Pompeo’s security detail was removed in the last few days.

Tucker [01:09:25] I don’t know that Brian Hook has served in government in for years.

Curt Mills [01:09:28] Why would he definitely has nothing to.

Curt Mills [01:09:29] Do with this for.

Tucker [01:09:29] Security detail paid for by taxpayers.

Curt Mills [01:09:32] Not an expert on who gets Secret Service.

Curt Mills [01:09:35] But can I just I just want to say.

Curt Mills [01:09:36] Actually, I can I can actually directly answer that. Yeah. So the key thing here is that there is an allegation, a belief many in the intelligence community believes this, that there were serious, credible plans by the Iranians to assassinate members of the Trump High Command, as it were.

Curt Mills [01:09:57] So Trump Hawk.

Curt Mills [01:10:00] John Bolton, et cetera, etc., in revenge, principally for the Suleimani, because that’s.

Tucker [01:10:05] Initiating a lot of terror attacks in the United States, you’ve noticed. No, no. That was intense.

Curt Mills [01:10:10] So. Right. And so that is the essential that is the cause is.

Tucker [01:10:14] Just going to have to scoff at all of.

Curt Mills [01:10:16] The causes. Belli for sure. So all the time I think.

Curt Mills [01:10:18] The key thing here is the critique on Trump always was he fired Bolton, but he didn’t understand why. So he just he soured on the guy, but he didn’t change any policy. You know, he didn’t learn this. There’s this this is the sort of pedantic way of looking at the president. But with the Hook and Pompeo removal from his inner circle, are there is, I think, very credible evidence that Trump’s personal grudges are now blending quite heavily with policy. He doesn’t trust the Iran Hawk old guard. A lot of the Iran Hawk old guard think tanks struck out in getting I transition officials and officials in this government and again circled around this very unlikely Pentagon. Helmed by a guy who has changed his life, it appears in pretty severe ways over the last five years, both ideologically and morally. It is this very new Pentagon that is now being targeted by all the usual suspects. And it is the biggest story in American politics that people are talking.

Tucker [01:11:35] So if I could sum up what I think you’re saying, it is that Donald Trump may have actually broken the grip of the neocons on Washington.

Curt Mills [01:11:44] I mean, you control the Pentagon. You control the military. I mean, it’s I mean, it’s.

Tucker [01:11:48] Just seems like this is because there was always this question about Trump. Like, you get up and you give these speeches where you say we don’t want more pointless wars. I believe in peace through strength, if not a worse not Jimmy Carter, but like, you know, you assert American power, but you don’t embroil the country in wars that you can’t win for no reason. It’s a very moderate, sensible, commonsense, I would say, view. So you say those things, but then you hire John Bolton. And the question is why? And Trump would say, I’ve heard him say, well, I heard Bolton.

Curt Mills [01:12:22] I beg your.

Tucker [01:12:22] Pardon? I heard Bolton because he’s a lunatic and he’s a warmonger freak. He’s obviously watching war porn late at night and people can smell that on him. And so when he goes into a negotiation, he scares the crap out of everybody. And then I show up. You know, he’s the heavy and bad cop. He’s become. Mean I’ve heard from say that and I’m. And I didn’t know if I believe that or not, but I’m starting to think that I should’ve just believed him because it sounds like Trump’s actual instincts are what he says they are.

Curt Mills [01:12:54] Yeah, I mean, the Bolton firing itself is against history, but it circled around an issue of policy.

Tucker [01:13:00] So I remember yeah.

Curt Mills [01:13:01] So, I mean, Trump had invited the Taliban, which was then the outlaw, not government of Afghanistan as it is today, to Camp David on 911.

Curt Mills [01:13:13] Which is I mean.

Tucker [01:13:14] So Trump invited the Taliban to camp. He did.

Curt Mills [01:13:16] He literally.

Curt Mills [01:13:17] Did that. I mean, I don’t think I mean, I’m just reporting the facts here.

Curt Mills [01:13:19] So, so mean It’s a.

Tucker [01:13:21] Great sense of Sardar Trump invited the Taliban. So tonight who’s coming for dinner tonight at Camp David All the Taliban will be here.

Curt Mills [01:13:27] Bolton Bolton was wiped out before this meeting never happened, but it was the instigating. Incident for the final breakdown of their relationship.

Tucker [01:13:39] I do think it’s important to just recognize the inherent hilarity of a lot of, you know, just it is in addition to being grave and, you know, historically significant, it’s very.

Curt Mills [01:13:48] Good is quite funny. A lot of it is very sort of funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s pretty great. Yeah.

Tucker [01:13:54] So you’re you’re very restrained and businesslike and precise as a reporter should be. As an editor should be. But the story that you’re telling, I think I don’t put words in your mouth is a is a is a story of like real change. Yeah. Finally, we actually appear to be getting to like a foreign policy that puts America close to the center of the of the action.

Curt Mills [01:14:16] Yeah. Is that is that what you’re saying? No, I.

Curt Mills [01:14:19] Mean. I mean. I mean, if he sees this through, this is this is the biggest presidency, certainly since Reagan. You look at FDR, I mean, it is moving the ship of state and people are going to try to stop him from doing it.

Curt Mills [01:14:33] Yes.

Curt Mills [01:14:33] But not they’re not going to they’re not going to say that he’s bad, though. They’re good. They’re going to go after him, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tucker [01:14:41] I just want to counter signaling by saying I think what you’re saying is true. I think it’s real. And I’ve never admired Trump more. I don’t. I don’t think I’m an ass kisser on the drum question, but this is like, America really needs this. It’s super important and it’s not radical at all. It’s not attacking anyone or canceling our ally ship with any country at all. It’s just.

Curt Mills [01:15:05] It’s, you.

Tucker [01:15:06] Know, adjusting expectations for what we can achieve.

Curt Mills [01:15:08] The reason I started covering war on foreign policy principally is that the reality is that US domestic policy is a morass. It’s impossible to get anything done. I know Obama tried to do a health care plan. They did for six years and they couldn’t even get the website working. You know, the country is hard to govern, but externally, our president is imperial.

Curt Mills [01:15:29] His God was.

Curt Mills [01:15:32] Quite literally the most powerful person on earth. And if you want to burnish a legacy real quick, you do big things in foreign policy. Well, that’s what shocking.

Tucker [01:15:42] That’s what all the Republican senators have figured out.

Curt Mills [01:15:44] You do surprising things.

Tucker [01:15:45] For John McCain like you’re, you know, whatever. You’ve got a lot of problems in your personal and public life. But you can bomb around Eastern Europe and get treated like an emperor.

Curt Mills [01:15:54] Right.

Tucker [01:15:54] And feel like you’re doing something you’re, you know, Jim Risch or Mike Rounds or some like U.S. senator nobody’s ever heard of, even in his home state. But when you travel to Romania to tornado base, people like.

Curt Mills [01:16:06] You know, Senator Rich is here. It’s like.

Curt Mills [01:16:10] The Foreign relations.

Curt Mills [01:16:11] Chair. Yeah. So. Right. Yeah. And so that’s a that’s a big.

Tucker [01:16:16] That’s a big motivator for our lawmakers, isn’t it?

Curt Mills [01:16:20] Sure. For sure. I mean, yeah.

Tucker [01:16:27] But, you know.

Curt Mills [01:16:28] Chairman Rich.

Tucker [01:16:29] It makes.

Curt Mills [01:16:30] Me rich. It’s like such an absurd.

Tucker [01:16:33] It’s. Anyway, excuse me. Interesting show. And I interrupted you because I know I can’t control myself. Zero self-control. On the topic of pizza or neo cons, and I’m just out of control. Tell me your analysis of Trump canceling the security details for Brian Hook and Mike Pompeo.

Curt Mills [01:16:56] Well, he seems to have the authentic view that these people can afford it, especially with Fauci, especially with Bolton. He specifically.

Curt Mills [01:17:06] Flagged them. Yeah.

Tucker [01:17:07] And Pompeo, who like who’s now running around being like, I’m actually I’m a businessman.

Curt Mills [01:17:12] He’s on a board of a Ukrainian company as well.

Tucker [01:17:16] And while he’s on, I think more than one board, but he’s certainly running around, including with people I know, saying I’m a really kind of a business guy.

Curt Mills [01:17:23] Look, I mean, to the.

Curt Mills [01:17:24] Pompeo’s things, I mean, is like I mean, it’s supremely interesting because I, you know. I think it’s somebody who probably would have positioned himself to run in a major way had Trump lost. I think it’s somebody who’s not going to quit being president. I think this is not an unintelligent man.

Tucker [01:17:40] This is how he’s smart.

Curt Mills [01:17:42] This is yeah, this is a.

Curt Mills [01:17:43] Real fight, not dumb.

Curt Mills [01:17:44] Fighter. And ah, I don’t want to say he’s part of the cynical back crowd, but he’s making a bet that the Trump thing will pass and I will be able to steamroll people like Vance and even Rubio in the future because I’m more vicious. And in the meantime, I, you know, maybe make some money, influence the debate, etc., etc.. And he’s very impressive if you don’t know. I mean I mean, I like I mean, if you don’t come in with huge foreign policy convictions, as I think you and I do, he can be very persuasive.

Tucker [01:18:17] Just for the record, I had no foreign policy can convictions. I don’t think I’m ideological on the question at all. I just think in general, our foreign policy is for the nation.

Curt Mills [01:18:27] I mean, I mean, like I like I mean, I think that’s what’s very interesting about some of these Pentagon picks and to keep making it back while also the vice president. A lot of people, my generation, the millennials fight in these wars and all of the baby boomers forget it. We’re now old, you know, and we grew up and are quite mad about it. And it’s a it’s a it’s a bipartisan thing. Yeah. Just like a Democrat, you know, anti-Iraq war indie music thing. It’s like young Republican people hate it, too. I hate. And they might hate it more, actually. Which is actually the interesting thing. The and the Republican Party, frankly, might under Trump might be a vessel of anti-war sentiment far more effectively than the Democrats. I mean, I didn’t see a lot of protests for the Ukraine war. The Israel stuff was pretty interesting. And that was probably was number one threat to Biden circa April.

Tucker [01:19:22] Remember that for sure.

Curt Mills [01:19:24] But, you know, if you look at the conversation online, if you look at the sentiments of of younger conservatives, young Republicans, the anti-war stuff is big and it’s not going anywhere. And I think that also drives a sense of a timetable, which is, you know, we’ve got these older people in their 6070s, 80s and 90s. They have a certain beliefs that they’re the people that voted for the stuff in the 90s and 2000s and we got to get this stuff done now before the United States turns you know on both parties on this stuff and this was always this was.

Tucker [01:19:55] How we can’t afford it anymore. And our allies pivot to China and sell even more defense technology to China. Yeah, I do think they’re okay. So with a backbone of support for these wars has been evangelicals, let’s just be blunt about it. It’s everyone, you know, beats up on the neo cons or whatever, these fervent intellectuals in Washington. But really the foot soldiers of this have been Fox News viewers who are not ideological. They’re not intellectuals. They’re not. They’re just normal American, patriotic, heavily evangelical people. And the truth is, I think a lot of them are beginning to recognize that their religion does not support this at all. Yeah. It’s really clear. Genesis six. Why do we have the flood? Why does God kill everything on earth? All the people except no one. His family, All the animals except the ones in the ark. What does he do that spells it right out? Because they’re committing violence, that’s why. So it’s like the idea that, I mean, the Iraq war breaks out and all these preachers like, no, no, no, really, we have to fight Islam and kill all these people. And that’s what God wants.

Curt Mills [01:20:58] That’s not what it says at all.

Tucker [01:21:01] And there’s no mention of any specific secular government in the New Testament. Sorry, guys. And I think a lot of Christians are beginning to realize it doesn’t because you’re Christian doesn’t mean you have a specific political agenda at all, I don’t think. Yeah. But if your political agenda is like violence, that’s prohibited. Sorry. And I have to say, it could not be clearer. It’s on every freaking page. So I don’t know. The deception involved in this was just like, mind boggling that these preachers could get up on Fox News and tell you that like, yeah, killing people is what Jesus wants. No, that’s not true. And I just feel among people I know a growing recognition of that. And I think it’s a huge problem for the war lobby, which has used these people as its supporters. And you see it in the Congress. You know, I’m an evangelical and I’m for another war with somebody. No, you can’t do that.

Curt Mills [01:21:51] And I’m hoping people are zoned out.

Curt Mills [01:21:53] You do think that?

Curt Mills [01:21:55] Yeah, I think there have been many countries old, tired, zoned out, can’t oppose it. And they’re hoping that these initiatives can be achieved piecemeal. You know, start by bombing Iran here, etc., etc.. Maybe the government will collapse, etc., etc., etc. to.

Tucker [01:22:12] Be replaced by what? The same?

Curt Mills [01:22:15] People who.

Tucker [01:22:16] Are in Khadafi and Saddam and the.

Curt Mills [01:22:19] Taliban, I think. Okay. I mean, you take the other side. I mean I mean, the Assad thing is it’s like pretty close to the best case scenario of how that could have gone. I think in Iran, it would go way, way, way worse. It’s a much bigger country.

Tucker [01:22:34] It’s hard to know your own the days, you know, you start killing people.

Curt Mills [01:22:37] Things go.

Tucker [01:22:38] Sideways like you think.

Curt Mills [01:22:39] It’s it’s pretty close to Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Right.

Curt Mills [01:22:42] You had you had.

Tucker [01:22:43] That way to me. You have.

Curt Mills [01:22:44] Urban. You have you have you have the capacity for major urban violence, all Iraq. You have huge cities. The Kabul’s small but you know you have that. And then additionally you have the mountain element. So any. Any outlaw contingent can just flee there. I mean, and we learned this before our southern neighbor. Why is Mexico ungovernable? The mountains.

Curt Mills [01:23:05] The insurgency that you just just.

Curt Mills [01:23:06] Just flee. I mean, the entire coastline.

Tucker [01:23:08] Right. Why is Kentucky ungovernable? Same reason.

Curt Mills [01:23:11] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so.

Curt Mills [01:23:13] Just kidding. No, no. I mean, it’s.

Curt Mills [01:23:14] I mean, it’s hard to. It would be very, very, very difficult. And just ask Saddam Hussein, who tried to invade Iran and it didn’t work out for Mr. Hussein, that a lot of things didn’t.

Tucker [01:23:24] So, no, I agree completely. Well, you have actually given me. I asked you to come for this conversation. It’s late at night. I was very exercised about it. You were nice enough to come and work in a hotel room in some city, but, I thought it was going to be more depressed by the end. But actually, I feel really heartened by what you said.

Curt Mills [01:23:45] Thanks for having me.

Tucker [01:23:47]