Tucker Carlson’s most forthright statement yet on Israel

Video here.

Carlson says some good things here. His main blind spot is castigating the American political class f0r their support of Israel (toward the beginning), but very little on how Jewish activism, Jewish media and Jewish money shape the attitudes of political elites. He notes well into his comments that AIPAC should register under the FARA as a foreign lobby but nothing on all the money, pressure and media support Israel gets from the American Jewish community or how politicians (whose only goal really is to get elected) are in fear of them.  (Jeffrey Sachs doesn’t help when he says in the second part of the persentation that the American Jewish community is hopelessly divided on Israel—without any attempt to discuss where the power lies. Clearly it’s not with Jewish Voice for Peace or Mondoweiss.) He also notes Netanyahu’s comment that Isreal dominates American politics:

I think the good news is that the government of Israel, in particular, the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has pushed it too far. And he did that in part by running around telling people what he thought was true, apparently, I control Donald Trump. I control the United States Congress. I control the United States. He said that to political allies. And opponents in his country said it to foreign heads of state. Fact. I control these people. Don’t you worry. And by the way, if you kick me out of office, the next guy probably won’t have the level of control that I have. He’s made that case. Openly, verbally, he said it out loud. And that was too much for our president [who then said that he “would not allow” Israel to annex the West Bank].

We’ll see what happens when push comes to shove on West Bank annexation. Trump changes his mind all the time.

Amazingly, he states that IDF officers were at the Pentagon during the 12-day June war with Iran making loud demands: they “enraged American Pentagon staff by just barging into meetings, giving orders, making demands, and nobody did anything about it.” Aggression doesn’t even  begin to describe it. And he states (correctly) that Israel roped the U.S. into wars in Iraq and Syria, noting the “Clean Break” manifesto by Richard Perle, David Wurmser, Douglas Feith, and other neocons that advocated for regime change throughout the Middle East. (See Karen Kwiatkowski’s similar comments [beginning at around 15:00] on Israelis “barging through” into the Pentagon to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld’s office and not having to sign in during the Iraq war.”)

He talks about Netanyahu’s term, the “woke Reich,” as if anyone who criticizes Israel is a Nazi. He notes the 1967 USS Liberty outrage where Israel bombed and strafed a U.S. naval ship, killing 34 and wounding 171, and he mentions Israel spying on America and selling military secrets and technology to China. He uses Nikki Haley, Mike Johnson, and Lindsey Graham as paradigmatic examples of slavish fealty to Israel.

And he disputes the theology of Christian Zionism, still important for many American idiots. The chosen people are those who choose Christ. Here Tucker seems to be latching on what he terms a Christian revival (fueled at least partly by Charlie Kirk) to get his message out. I believe that he thinks that there is a Christian community in the United States that can ultimately be mobilized to take their own interests in  ending foreign interventions and rolling back immigration and multiculturalism.

He also claims that in the last two years the U.S. has given Israel $30 billion (i.e., not the $3.8 billion/year as usually noted) and that U.S. largesse to Egypt is also the result of Israeli influence.

And he notes Netanyahu’s comment that social media is the big problem in the U.S. and suggests that the real reason there was so much concern about China owning Tik Tok was the desire for censorship on behalf of Israel, especially on Tik Tok and X. But he doesn’t mention that censorship on behalf of Israel is exactly what will happen when Larry Ellison gets control of Tik Tok’s algorithm after the deal is consummated; nor does he mention Ellison’s neocon credentials.  Or the fact that Ellison’s protégé, pro-Israel fanatic Bari Weiss, will run CBS. after Ellison’s Paramount bought it. Netanyahu also implied that pressure should be brought on Elon Musk to censor X. Very important that Musk not cave in to such demands.

All this should infuriate Americans, and that is his purpose. It’s great to see a major mainstream conservative with a huge audience talking like this. We are definitely seeing more and more of this (e.g., from podcasts by people like Candace Owens and Judge Napolitano), and that is a good sign indeed. One can only hope that Americans come to be infuriated by Jewish activism and influence on destructive domestic policies like immigration and multiculturalism born ultimately by Jewish hatred toward the people and culture of the West.

Tucker [00:00:00] There’s a lot going on in the world right now, but if you’re on social media, and of course you are, because it’s really America’s only remaining news source, you know there’s only one story going on, and it’s Israel. Everyone online is arguing about Israel. And really they fall into one of two camps, generally speaking. So probably the more aggressive side are the deranged Taliban-level ethno-narcissists who are telling you that any criticism of the secular government of Israel is tantamount to blood libel against the Jewish people. And if you think that maybe it was not a great idea to arm Joseph Stalin, the greatest murder in history, then you’re a Holocaust denier! Shut up! And then on the other side, a group every bit as obsessed with Jews are the people who hate Jews, who are telling you that anyone who’s Jewish is bad by virtue of being Jewish. It’s a blood thing. Two things are interesting. One, there are very few kind of conventional Christian voices saying, wait a second, This is a secular government, another country. And it has probably nothing to do with my religion or anybody’s religion. And we should never judge people on the basis of their immutable qualities because guilt and virtue are not passed down genetically. But almost no one is saying that. So you really have the ethno-narcissists and the anti-Semites. And they’re at war with each other. That’s the online picture. What’s even more interesting and maybe even more distressing is that in the U.S. Government… The conversation, while much more muted, is a mirror of this in that a lot of the conversation is about Israel. Israel, a tiny country in the Middle East. Not critical to our national security, by the way. But the conversation, the bandwidth, is consumed by questions of Israel. So wherever you stand on Israel, whether you’re on one of the two sides just described or neither one of them, you know in your gut that this is bad. If a country like ours, supposedly the most powerful in the world, is devoting all of its time internally to conversations about Israel, it’s probably not going in a good direction. There’s probably a lot being neglected in favor of this very specific boutique conversation about this tiny little country. It’s just not good for anybody, including Israel, by the way. So what’s the antidote to this? How do you fix it? Here are four things you can do. The conversation about Israel and the relationship with Israel a lot healthier than it currently is. Here are the four. The first is get some global perspective on what we’re talking about. The United States is a nation of 350 million people. It has some of the deepest natural resources in the world. That would include energy and water, agricultural products. The United States, however it’s managed… Is a powerhouse globally and always will be because its strength is inherent. It’s a huge decisive country in the scope of world history. The United States makes things happen. Israel is not an insult, merely an observation. By contrast is a tiny and inherently insignificant country, at least geopolitically, in that it has only 9 million people and no natural resources, no meaningful natural resources. So it is insignificant. It is also physically tiny. It’s about the size of New Jersey, famously, but it has a much smaller GDP than New Jersey. It is a much small economy than the state of New Jerseys, it has an economy about the size the state Arizona and almost one half the economy of the state Massachusetts or Illinois. It just doesn’t really matter, actually. If you’re looking at a map and thinking through, you know, where does power politics go? Israel’s not even on the list, again. It’s tiny. It’s got The population of Burundi, it’s got a smaller population than Belgium. What is this anyway? And yet, despite its objective insignificance, it is the focus of the conversation, but it’s also the focus the spending. So right now, as we speak tonight, there are two THAAD missile batteries in Israel. That’s one quarter of the world’s total supply of THAAd missile batteries. THAAD missile batteries are American made, very high tech. Missile battery that takes incoming missiles out of the sky. And one quarter of the world’s entire supply of these is in Israel right now manned by U.S. Troops, by Americans. In uniform or not, they are American military personnel and they are manning these batteries to protect Israel. And that shouldn’t surprise you because since October 7, 2023, which is a little less than two years ago, the United States has spent at minimum $30 billion defending Israel. Huge. And for some perspective, the entire Israeli military budget before October 7th was about $25 billion. So the United States has put at least $30 billion into defending Israel in less than two years. Over the course of its existence, a little less than 80 years, the United States has put $300 billion, at least those are just the on books numbers, into supporting Israel, $300 billion. Israel is by far, no one comes close, the largest recipient of U.S. Aid over time and currently. So anyone who says, oh, it’s just a drop in the bucket. It’s totally insignificant, is lying or doesn’t know the numbers. By the way, number two is Egypt. So why are we spending so much money in Egypt? Well, we’re doing it at the request of Israel. So you could probably add that to the tally. It’s not an attack. It’s merely perspective. We are spending our time, our money. And we’re taking enormous risks on behalf of a country that geopolitically is not significant. The interesting thing is, most Americans have no idea that this is true. They don’t know how disproportionate our attention to Israel and our spending on Israel is relative to the rest of the world. And if you want some sense of how disproportion it, India and China combined, neither of which is a strong ally at the moment, combined represent more than a third of the entire world’s population, both arrivals economically, both arrivals militarily, at least potentially. And our relationship with them has gotten worse or is at the very least languished because of our relationship with Israel, because of the bandwidth consumed by tending to it. And also because of some of the inevitable conflicts that have arisen because of support for Israel, which is engaged in an extremely controversial, which is to say hated war in Gaza, which it’s not even really a war. It’s a massive displacement of people and killing on a grand scale of unarmed people, of unarm combatants. Of civilians, of women and children. And the world sees this and the world rejects it and the world hates it. And so Israel’s really last remaining ally of size other than the UK is the United States. And so there’s a huge cost to this. But again, most Americans have no perspective on just how disproportionate our commitment is because they marinate in lies about this relationship, mostly from our political class, also from the media, but really if you were to lay the blame on one group in the United States, it’s our elected leaders who continuously lie to us about the nature of this relationship, its significance. And they do it generationally. They’ve been doing it for many decades here. And this is just one example, but the most fun to watch. This is Nikki Haley at the Republican presidential primary debate, 2023 describing the United State’s relationship with the state of Israel. Watch.

Nikki Haley[00:07:44] The last thing we need to do is to tell Israel what to do. The only thing we should be doing is supporting them and eliminating Hamas. It is not that Israel needs America. America needs Israel.

Tucker [00:07:59] It is not that Israel needs the United States. The United States needs Israel. How could that possibly be true? It is in no sense true. In fact, it’s one of those lies that’s not three degrees off the truth. It is a complete inversion of the truth and the truth, which is obvious to anyone who looks at the numbers or is paying any attention at all is that Israel could not survive without the United states. That’s not an argument for. Pulling all aid to Israel. It’s just an acknowledgement of the physical reality. Israel fights its wars with American backing, with the guarantee, the implied defense guarantee that we have provided for so many years since at least 1973, 50 years. And its social services are made possible, which are quite generous, made possible by American subsidies. In other words, every dollar that goes to the Israeli military from the United States is a dollar that. The nation of Israel can spend on its own people. And so there is no world in which America needs Israel more than Israel needs the United States. And of course, Nikki was, Haley was never asked to explain how exactly that could be true. What are you talking about? Governor Haley, not one person asked her that question. And no one asked her the question because anyone in whose mind that question appeared. Would have paused for fear of being attacked as an anti-Semite for asking a question about geopolitics. That has been the state of play in the United States for my entire life over 50 years. Politicians make nonsensical statements. Nobody wants to even ask a follow-up question for fear of being intact. It is a state of perpetual intimidation. Everybody’s afraid of Israel, afraid of the topic, afraid in some cases of the state itself. We have not had an honest conversation about this ever. Certainly not in my lifetime. And that suits the Israelis just fine. And if you’re wondering why there’s an awful lot of lunatic anti-Semitic comment about Israel online, you have to wonder how much of that is organic. Some of it, of course, there are always haters, but how much of it is not organic at all? How much of is of that the lunatic, all Jews are evil. How much of that is being ginned up on purpose to make legitimate questions about the US government’s relationship with the government of Israel seem like crackpot stuff, like hate, like David Duke level lunacy, probably some because it serves their interests. Now that is a criticism of the state of Israel and it’s incredibly sophisticated propaganda campaign, which again, the rest of us been marinating in for a long time. But the true villain here, I would argue is not the state of Israel, the Jews, it’s the United States. It’s our leaders who are putting up with this. Israel is a small country with very limited resources and it is doing its best to serve its own interests. You’d think every country would act that way and most do, but there are some that don’t and ours would top that list. And so the true shame here, the actual villain in the story is the leadership of the United States that is putting up with serial humiliation for decades. And for what reason? So if there’s someone to be mad at, it’s our leaders. And that leads to the second thing that we can do to fix this truly unhealthy relationship, this poisonous relationship, which is getting worse by the way, it is breaking our society into pieces. It’s. Truly hurting the Trump administration. The second thing we can do after getting global perspective on what we’re actually talking about here, a tiny country that is in the deepest sense, insignificant to the United States. The second day we can, do is get some freaking self-respect and stop being ordered around by a client state. That’s not good for us. It’s not for them. It’s good for anybody. It’s like being screamed at by your children. No normal parent would allow that because it’s totally destructive. It’s not good for you. And it’s not good for the child. And that is exactly the relationship that we have with the state of Israel, in fact, not in theory. In fact, it is a huge country and a tiny country. The huge country supports the tiny country and that’s a pretty nice thing to do and whether it’s wise or not as a whole separate conversation, but if you’re going to have that relationship apparent to a child, you cannot be yelled at, humiliated, spied upon, bossed around by the child by the person in the inherently subordinate position. You can’t do that. You can be shamed into ignoring things that are quite clearly not the behavior of a subordinate ally to a big brother ally. For example, spying on the country that makes your economy and your defense possible, which the Israelis have been doing for generations. That’s a fact. One of them very famously was caught, Jonathan Pollard, who’s an American citizen, taking real secrets, like actual military secrets. And sending them to Israel, which promptly sent a bunch of them to the Soviet Union, which was our arch rival, our foe at the time. And that happened. And he went to prison and then somebody got out of prison and went to Israel where he continues to denounce the United States and anyone who says anything about it is attacked. Oh, you’re an anti-Semite. There’s nothing to do with anti-semitism. That’s insulting. Why would we ever put up with that? Well, we put up, with the attack on the USS Liberty that everyone’s so afraid to talk about clearly targeted on purpose. By a country we’re supporting, Israel, and it’s somehow shameful to say that. Why? Why is it shameful to see that? Who knows why it’s shameful to say that, but it shouldn’t be. And until we have some self-respect, not anger or hate, but just dignity, it will continue in June. For example, during the 12 day war, such as it was with Iran, the US and Israel versus Iran, bombing on all sides, during that short conflict. IDF officers in the Pentagon, foreign military officers in the Pentagon. And by the way, they’re not the only foreign military officers in The Pentagon, to be clear. There are NATO officers there from other countries, British, but there are a bunch of Israeli Defense Force officers in The Pentagon that week. And during that week, ask anyone who works at the Pentagon, they enraged American Pentagon staff by just barging into meetings, giving orders, making demands, and nobody did anything about it. How can a foreign military officer barge into military headquarters, even if invited to barge, into a meeting and start demanding, we want this, we want that. You need to get on this. The more you allow that kind of deeply unhealthy behavior, the more you’re going to get. And that’s exactly what has happened. Because of the weakness of our leaders, we have incited predators in a foreign country to take advantage of us. Oh, that’s such an anti-Israel thing. It’s not anti-israel at all. It’s a demand that the people whose job it is, whose sacred duty it is to defend and represent us, our leaders both at The Pentagon and all throughout the US government. That they do that, that they stand up and defend us against. Potential threats against all foreign countries to the extent they need to, and that they do not prostrate themselves before a foreign nation. That’s just basic. Why have a government, especially a strong government, if it’s taking orders from another weaker government, and that is the state of play. And it has been for a very long time. They’re not even pretending to such an extent that the Prime Minister of Israel goes on television to openly participate in, meddle in internal American politics, taking sides, attacking people, Americans. You wouldn’t think it would be his business. He’s not an American leader. He’s, not even an American citizen going on television to attack Americans because they’re not fully on board with sending. Billions more to a country of 9 million people. And in case you think that’s an overstatement, here is the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, commenting on American politics.

Benjamin Netanyahu[00:16:30] They talked about the woke right. He said, I call it the woke, reich. That’s a brilliant, the woke right. Because these people, you know, they’re not any different from the woke left. I mean, they are insane. They’re the reason, but they’re actually meeting on some of the things we have to fight back. How do we fight back our influencers? I think you should also talk to them. If you have a chance to that, that community, they are very important. And secondly, we’re going to have to use the tools of battle. And the most important ones are the social media and the most important purchase that is going on right now is class. Tik Tok, Tik Tok number one, number one. And I hope it goes through because it’s a, it can be consequential and the other one, what’s the other one that’s most important. X, very good. And you know, so we have to talk to Elon. He’s not an enemy. He’s a friend. We should talk to him. Now, if we can get those two things, we get a lot and I could go on on other things, but that’s not the point right now. We have to fight the fight.

Tucker [00:17:45] It’s almost unbelievable that he said that on camera. Imagine this is a foreign leader bragging about how he’s censoring Americans. Again, this guy runs a country of 9 million people. That’s totally dependent on our tax dollars to exist. And here he is on camera and he’s a sophisticated guy. He, of course, he knows that he’s being filmed saying. Anyone who opposes me in the United States, who opposes more aid to Israel or opposes getting sucked into war with Iran, which does not serve American interests, that person is not simply mistaken or wrong. I’m not going to bother to explain why that person is wrong. That person is a Nazi part of the woke Reich, a Nazi. And the only way to fix it is by preventing Americans in the last country on earth with guaranteed freedom of speech. Prevent Americans from hearing the other side. And so we push Congress to force a TikTok sale, which is true, by the way. And when that happened and various members of Congress like, no, really, it’s about China. There were people online and said, no. I think it’s really about Israel. You kind of wish it was about China here. He is just admitting no, no we push the US Congress to censor. In the United States to commit censorship in the United States, because we think it’s bad for us. And we need to talk to Elon. The only reason we have free speech in the United States right now is because of Elon Musk. By the way, a naturalized American, a foreigner who looked at the United states and said, what’s great about that country? People can say what they believe because they’re not slaves. They’re not subjects of the state. They’re citizens of a nation that they own. Free speech is central to the entire idea of America. In fact, it’s really the only thing that sets us apart from any other country on earth. It’s not our market economy. It’s freedom of speech. And here’s this guy, a foreign head of state, who let me restate, is totally dependent on our tax dollars to exist, is saying Americans don’t have that right. And he’s going to do some kind of secret pressure campaign on Elon Musk to censor X because it bothers Israel. You know, that’s the point at which you just say, no, absolutely not. That is not allowed. But since no one has said that, it has continued. And that’s why when you go on social media, you see person after person taking that guy’s line, that guy line, repeating foreign government talking points on social media as Americans. Oh, you’re you can’t say that. It’s true. It’s 100 percent true. And it’s also totally counterproductive, by the way. This is not a sophisticated propaganda campaign. This is a brutal and brutish propaganda campaign where anyone who disagrees with anything is immediately slandered and smeared. Megyn Kelly, who’s got to be the single most moderate person on the question of Israel, said a hundred times and means it, by the way, I like Israel. I’m not against Israel, you know, but maybe it’s not a great idea to get sucked into one of their wars. We’ve done that. Let’s not do it again. Nazi immediately called her an anti-Semite and won’t stop. Meanwhile, the actual anti-semites, and there certainly are some online, never get criticized by Bibi or anyone else in his orbit. That’s kind of interesting, isn’t it? I wonder why that is when you have actual anti Semites doing videos, making fun of Auschwitz, but they get a pass. Hmm. Maybe things are not quite as they seem. But normal people who harbor no hate toward anyone or try not to are immediately slandered in a way that makes it, in some cases, hard for them to have jobs if they deviate even a little bit. So what’s the effect of this? Not that it’s up to me to tell Israel how to run its propaganda campaigns, but the effect just noticing is that it turns allies into enemies. You can agree on 98% of things, but if you think maybe it was a bad idea to bomb Doha. Qatar, the site of the largest military base in the Middle East, which exists to protect Israel, if you think it was a bad idea for the Israeli government to bomb Doha, then you’re a what? A Nazi? Just in point of fact, by the way, Hamas was originally in Qatar because the Israeli Government asked them to accept Hamas. That air base exists to protect Israel, by way. That was such a reckless and demented move that Mossad in Israel opposed it and wouldn’t participate in it because they thought it was too reckless. So to say that there is quite a bit of latitude for debate in Israel is an understatement. Mossad refused to participate in that, but as an American on social media, if you’re like, I think it’s a little crazy that our ally is bombing another one of our allies without even telling us and then lying and pretending that they had permission from the president to do this, which they did not. If you say that you’re a Nazi, you’re part of the woke Reich. This can’t continue. It’s too crazy. It’s counterproductive for them and it’s deeply destructive of our political conversation and of our country itself. And the good news is that the humiliation, which has gone, I mean, give you one more example of the humiliation which is almost beyond belief. So Israel’s our greatest ally. We should never ask anything of them. Of course, you heard Nikki Haley. You hear all of them say exactly the same thing. Protecting Israel is the most important thing. They’re our only real ally. If they’re only real ally, why does Israel have a long history of transferring military technology, including American military technology, to China, to China? Most people have no idea that’s true. It is true. Why is China running the port of Haifa, Israel’s biggest port? Really? If they are such a close ally. And of course the answer is because from Israel’s perspective, we’re not a close ally, we are a country that has been willing to help them, but when you only have nine million people and a defense budget, you know, you take help where you can get it. So the loyalty is not requited. It’s one way. And I think the good news is that the governor of Israel, in particular, the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has pushed it too far. And he did that in part by running around telling people what he thought was true, apparently, I control Donald Trump. I control the United States Congress. I control United States. He said that to political allies. And opponents in his country said it to foreign heads of state. Fact. I control these people. Don’t you worry. And by the way, if you kick me out of office, the next guy probably won’t have the level of control that I have. He’s made that case. Openly, verbally, he said it out loud. And that was too much for our president. And so in one of the great moments, it was a cool shower on a hot day. President Trump. Push back, not directly, but you can watch this clip and see that he’s had enough. Here is President Trump the other day asked about Israel’s plans to annex the West Bank. Watch.

Reporter [00:25:06] Did you promise leaders this week that you would not allow Israel to annex the West Bank? Is that something that you

Trump[00:25:11] I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. No, I will not allow it. It’s not going to happen.

Reporter [00:25:16] Did you speak with Netanyahu about this?

Trump [00:25:18] Yeah, but I’m not going to allow it, whether I spoke to him or not, I did. But I’m not allowing Israel to annex the West Bank. There’s been enough. It’s time to stop.

Tucker [00:25:28] I will not allow it. He’s not just talking about the West Bank there, obviously. These are political people. They understand when your poll numbers fall dramatically, particularly among the young men who helped make you president, you have to ask, why is that? And it’s about this issue because it’s too humiliating and people who don’t want to see their government bossed around by a tiny foreign power are not haters. They don’t hate any ethnic group. They just don’t want to be humiliated. And by the way, why should they be humiliated? That’s the core problem right there. That’s why Donald Trump has lost support over this Israel question. And he knows that and he’s pushing back. And there’s just no question from that clip whatsoever. So the third thing I think that would be very helpful to restore health and balance to the relationship between the United States and Israel. Is restore the concept of citizenship in the United States. If you’re an American citizen, it means something. The first thing it means is equality. You are equal to every other citizen. There’s no hierarchy of citizenship. All citizens are equal. Each gets one vote. Each gets justice before the law. That’s the promise of the United States and each gets to say exactly what he thinks. Period. Restore the value of citizenship. And the very first thing you would do if you cared about that and you should because the country can’t continue without it. After you expelled everyone who’s not a citizen from the country, which should happen immediately, they should be deported immediately for our own survival. But after doing that, the first thing you would do is not allow dual citizenship. Why would you allow that? You’re a citizen of two countries. Can you really serve two masters simultaneously? By the way, it’s not just Israelis who have dual citizenship. They’re all, every nationality has dual citizenship in this country. It’s not just Israel and it shouldn’t be allowed for a single moment. What is that? Whose side are you on? Don’t accuse me of dual loyalty. Well, you’re a dual citizen, whether it’s Argentina or Mali or Israel, not allowed. And moreover, you are not allowed to serve in a foreign military without losing your American citizenship. You’re fighting for another country. How can that be allowed? How can you retain your citizenship? By the way, why aren’t you serving in our military? Every country has a different perspective on the world and that grows from a whole bunch of different things, their history, their language, their size, their resources. But each country is different and each country is a different set of priorities. And if you’re fighting in a military for a country, you are not serving America’s priorities. You’re taking up arms on behalf of foreign power. You’re done. This would seem to be obvious. Many Americans have fought in Israel, in Gaza. Many Americans are fought in Ukraine, by the way, and a lot of other countries for foreign militaries. Lose your citizenship immediately. Of course. Obviously. It’s amazing that even exists. An APAC has to register under FARE, the Foreign Age and Registration Act of the 1930s. Of course, it’s a foreign lobby. There are a million of them, but it’s only APAC that doesn’t register. And it’s only APACT that is somehow above criticism. It’s a foreign lobby. It is acting on behalf of foreign government and its interests. Again, it is one of many, but it is the only one that doesn’t have to register. And of course, it should register immediately. You should know who is giving money to your politicians. You should know who is influencing them. There should be a record of that, as there is with any other nation, any other lobby of a foreign power, and only APAC is exempt. What is the effect of that? It makes everyone paranoid. Doesn’t make people like Israel more. When a topic cannot be spoken about, and when anyone who raises it is called a Nazi, the woke Reich, or dismissed as a Holocaust denier, anti-Semite or whatever, slandered in some way like that, it doesn’t make the problem go away. It festers and people go crazy and get angry and become resentful and all that. There’s no reason to conduct any business like that in secrecy. It doesn’t make things better at all. It doesn’ make the person doing it stronger. It makes him weaker actually in the end. The last thing that I think we need to do to restore balance between the relationship between the United States and Israel and to restore some sanity to the public conversation on this topic is to get our theology right. This is not a message aimed at Israelis or Jews. This is a message aimed at Christians who are the largest group of Israel supporters in the United States. Their view of Israel is colored not just by sentimental attachment, which is fine, or trips to Israel. Great, no problem. But by a Christian heresy, the oldest of the Christian heresies, which is that God somehow prefers some people based on their DNA. And of course the whole point of Christianity is that that is no longer true, that there is no chosen people. The chosen people are people who choose Jesus. That is the Christian message right there. It’s not an anti-Semitic message by the way. It’s the Christian message. It’s a core Christian message. And yet there are many. Many self-described representatives of the Christian faith, the world’s largest, who are daily sending a different message. And we should be very clear. Whatever this is, it’s not Christianity. It is heresy. And among the many examples we could pick, we’re going to go, because we couldn’t control ourselves, with Lindsey Graham. Watch.

Lindsey Graham [00:30:45] To people in my party, I’m tired of this crap. Israel is our friend. They’re the most reliable friend we have in the Mideast. They’re a democracy surrounded by people who would cut their throats if they could. This is not a hard choice if you’re in America. It’s not a hard choice if you’re a Christian. A word of warning. If America pulls the plug on Israel, God will pull the plug on us.

Tucker [00:31:17] God will kill you if you don’t support Bibi Netanyahu. That’s what he’s saying. And there are cheers, unfortunately. Cheers when he said that God will kill you. He will pull the plug on you, like a quadriplegic in intensive care. You’re going to flatline unless you support the secular, abortion on demand government of Israel. That’s the Christian perspective, really. That God loves some people more because of their DNA. That is not the Christian message. That’s the opposite of the Christian message, the Christian message is universal. That’s the whole point of it. The chosen people in Christianity are those who choose Jesus. The entire New Testament is that story and anyone who says otherwise has not read it or is lying. God does not prefer you because of your DNA or anyone else because of their DNA. Period. So the fact that people can stand up in the United States in 2025 and say something like that. And by the way, not even make the case. Just invoke the power of God as a weapon. He will kill you. He’ll pull the plug on your country unless you go along with this. We need more war. Listen to yourself. And it’s not just Lindsey Graham. It’s the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. It’s a lot of people, some of whom are very nice people. People have dinner with them. They seem perfectly normal. But this is a heresy and it’s deranged. And you know it’s deranged because it is a justification for killing the innocent. And in Christianity, if there’s one thing that’s crystal clear, it’s that Christians cannot abide the killing of the innocent, people who have done nothing wrong cannot be killed. That’s a sin. You are not allowed to do that. Period. And if you find anyone leveraging the message of Jesus to justify the killing of innocence, that person is committing heresy. So those are the four things I think that we probably should do right away to restore some balance and health, reduce the craziness in the relationship and the conversation about Israel. But now for an update and where exactly things are in a complex and dynamic moment globally with regard to Israel, our old friend, Mr. Sachs is here. Oh, Jeff, thank you so much.

Jeff Sachs [00:33:34] Thank you, Tucker. And thank you for really what a remarkable statement you just made and how many important things you said.

Tucker [00:33:43] Well, it’s just bad and it doesn’t need to be bad. And I just I think this is one place where I do agree with the neocons, some of whom are, you know, they are ethno-narcissists, a lot of them, but they’re right when they say if the national conversation is all about Jews and people are all met, like, that’s just not good for anybody. I don’t think that’s good. We need to deescalate and pull back. We need to deracialize this right away, right away and make it sane. And otherwise, what’s going to happen? Anyway, that’s enough lecture for me.

Jeff Sachs [00:34:13] No, no, no. But it’s it’s an important point because the whole issue about Israel is not about Jews, by the way. Exactly. The Jews in the United States completely divided on this issue as are non-Jews. This is not about Jews. This is about a state and what it’s doing right now. It’s history and American interest. And I think you said that all extremely clearly.

Tucker [00:34:40] Do you think there’s been a lot of talk today about another war with Iran? Do you think that that’s coming?

Jeff Sachs [00:34:50] I think it’s very likely because Netanyahu is absolutely intent and he has been intent for nearly 30 years. It’s nearly 30 years since he first became prime minister in 1996 in dragging the United States into a prolonged war with Iran. And he dragged the United States, and it’s a shame that the United States government went along with it. But he dragged the United States into a war with Iran just recently, and it’s extremely dangerous. And of course, he wants to do it again. It’s been part of Netanyahu’s policy to pull the United States into repeated wars. This is why this whole relationship is so completely dysfunctional. Netanyah, who back in 1996. With American political advisors, actually came up with a a document called Clean Break. Clean Break is a very strange, but very clear statement of what has trapped the United States for nearly 30 years. Clean Break says, well, Israel’s never going to compromise with its Palestinian Arab population in its midst and in the Palestinian lands. It’s going to control all of those lands, and it’s going to control or expel or kill or ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population. And that’s going to create unrest, and it is going to create a militant reaction. And then what Clean Break says is, yes, that’s going to happen and we will go to war against any other country in the region that supports opposition to greater Israel. That is Israel’s control over all of Palestine. There’s just one footnote to that. When Netanyahu said we will go to war, what he meant was the United States will go to war for us. So Netanyah, who has been the great champion of pushing America into endless wars for the last three decades. He was the big cheerleader of the Iraq War. People may remember that or they can refresh their memories. Devastatingly wrong war sold on completely phony pretenses that Netanyahu cheerlead. And one can even go online and find his testimony to Congress in October 2002 about how wonderful this war is going to be and how it’s going to lead to a breakout of freedom throughout the Middle East. He’s full of it and he’s been full of it for. Nearly 30 years, but he has had many wars in sight that he has actually dragged the United States into the war in Syria, which goes on and started with Obama in 2011 ordering the or assigning the CIA the task to overthrow the Syrian government was again at Netanyahu’s and Israel’s behest. Absolutely extraordinary. The ongoing wars in Lebanon, in Syria, in Iraq, the recent so-called 12 day war with Iran, which was a disgrace and a great danger. Even the wars in in East Africa, in Sudan, in Somalia and in Libya were pushed by Netanyahu. Needing to that, we need to overthrow regimes that support opposition to Israel’s control over the Palestinians. And in 2011, just to take another case because Obama did double duty that year, he went to war with Syria in a completely weird way of assigning the CIA the overthrow. But he also launched a war against Libya to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi. This was the Obama Hillary Clinton teamwork to drag America into more wars. This has its roots in Netanyahu’s doctrine, which is we will control all of Palestine. This will lead to unrest. It will lead to militancy. It will led to suffering of the Palestinian people. So what? But it will lead to challenges to Israel, and we will confront those by overthrowing the governments that support the militancy against Israel’s control over Palestine. And the U.S. Has played along until today. And I have to say, even though we saw just that tape of President Trump. Saying that, no, Israel will not annex the West Bank. First of all, don’t hold your breath because we’ve not yet seen an American president for 30 years that has resisted Israel. And I am still. Fearful that Trump is the same, because frankly. What we have right now, and Netanyahu said so, Israel’s involved in seven wars right now. It’s disgusting. They’re all over the Middle East in war. They’re in war in Gaza. They’re in war in the West Bank. They’re in war in Lebanon. They’re in war with Syria. They’re in war Iraq. They’re in war with Iran. They’re at war with Yemen. So far, the United States has funded, armed and diplomatically supported all of this. And the United States has absolutely not and in this government, and it’s true of the previous ones as well, not said a word about the state of Palestine, which is absolutely key to peace. There needs to be a state for the Palestinian people alongside a state for the Israelis. This is international law. It’s absolutely obvious to almost every country in the whole world. But the United States listens to Netanyahu. And by United States, I don’t mean the people, because just as you said, the American people are against all of this, by the way, by large majorities. This is not. Being driven by American public opinion, this is our American political class telling Americans what to believe, not what Americans actually believe. Americans want the United States to recognize the state of Palestine. The United States public opposes what Israel is doing by large majorities. This is the political class. But unfortunately, it includes the White House and it includes the Congress. And it hasn’t stopped yet. And the situation in the Middle East is explosive. And Netanyahu is working overtime to pull us into yet another war.

Tucker [00:43:02] May I ask you, you said a moment ago that no American president has ever constrained Israel in a meaningful way. I think George. In the modern period. Yeah, George H.W. Bush kind of tried. And there was talk of an assassination attempt against him. And he lost, of course, after one term. But why do you why do you think that is? Why is a country of nine million people able to dictate terms to a country of three hundred and fifty million people?

Jeff Sachs [00:43:32] Well, first of all, there’s no legitimate reason for that. In other words, there is no intrinsic U.S. Interest in any way, whether it’s military or security or economic for this to be the case. There is no moral reason for this to be the case, in other words. One could support Israel without supporting Israel’s. Reckless extremism and militarism and all its wars. And so there’s no reason for the United States government to have given a blank check, actually handed our military and our intelligence over to Israel to tell us what to do. There’s no legitimate reason for this. The question why this is the case is, of course, I think to all of us, even no matter how much on the inside we are or how many decades we’ve watched this, a bit of a mystery. Because I’ve seen this close up for more than 50 years. And if you ask me, am I really sure? Netanyahu, who was a absolutely disgusting warmonger, who has dragged us into terrible wars, who is committing massive war crimes. Why he gets 57 standing ovations in the U.S. Congress. If you ask me in my heart, do I really understand that? Is it the APEC lobby, the Israel lobby? Well, partly. Is it blackmail by Israel? Because there’s no doubt a lot of credible claims of Epstein and more about blackmail. Is it that? Is it direct bribes? Is it fear of American politicians? Is it the mainstream media, which, for a lot of reasons owned by a lot billionaires that tend to be rather ardent Zionists? Is it the larger Christian Zionist vote base, which is also a real thing? To tell you the truth, none of it really adds up. I agree. In full, because this is not in America’s interest. It’s not in American’s interest to be isolated in the world together with a murderous, rogue state, which is sad to say what the Israeli government has become. It is the most lawless state. The whole world right now, it’s committing massive war crimes. It is, as Netanyahu said, at war in seven fronts. If you’re at war and seven fronts, that’s pretty weird. That shows you don’t have diplomacy. You have war as a policy. And of course, Netanyah who does have war as a poli. And, you know, Tucker, I am at the UN a lot, so I. I’m in the UN Security Council a lot, listening or participating in UN sessions. And the UN, the Israeli politicians come and they yell at the whole rest of the world. And they yell at them in the most vulgar, stupid. Poor aisle. Absolutely imbalanced and irrational way. And then the U.S. Representative says, yes, yes. We we are with Israel. So if you ask me why this is fundamentally. First, it’s disgusting. Second, it is no rational basis. And third, if it is the money, the lobbying, the mass media propaganda, I’d be. Really strange beliefs of some people, whatever it is, even all of that, for my mind, doesn’t add up because a president of the United States should be able to figure this out a little bit better, that this is absolutely not in America’s interest. And we do not have a military that is to be handed out to another country to do whatever reckless things that country is doing. And right now, Israel is not only doing reckless things. It is committing a genocide. And that is not my opinion. That is the opinion pervasively of both scholars and specialists in this matter and in Israeli human rights organizations, in countless observers inside. Israel and observers all over the world. The U.S. Is actually, and I’m sorry to say it, complicit in genocide right now. A president should be able to figure this out. And they don’t. And so when you ask me this question, I can give you a list of answers, but somehow it doesn’t add up for me because this is not so hard to figure out that we are on a terribly wrong track.

Tucker [00:49:36] I agree with you completely. I’ve thought about it a lot. And you don’t have to hate Israel, which I don’t, to ask like why the serial humiliation rituals and no one ever says, you know, Basta, ever. And and I do think there’s people perceive a deep threat. Well, I know that that’s true. I wonder if the attack on Doha, on Qatar and in general the kind of nonstop effort to malign Qatar, Qatar is the most important player in U.S. It’s also deranged. It’s all projection. But I wonder if bombing a close U. S. Ally, kind of critical U. S. Ally in that region, Qatar is a critical U S. Ally, just to be clear. I wonder if that was like too much. I wonder if that was the beginning of the end for Bibi.

Jeff Sachs [00:50:29] I have to say there’s been a lot that should have been the beginning of the end going back 30 years, going back to the Iraq war. And even before that, starving a population in Gaza, as Israel is doing right now, should have been enough even without the bombing of Qatar. But. Yes, Qatar was an extraordinary event. Israel says we don’t have to obey any laws anywhere. We will go anywhere. We will murder anyone. It’s a murder operation, Mossad especially. But also this was the Israeli military in this case. And interestingly, what were they trying to do? According to them in Qatar, they were trying to murder the negotiators of Hamas who were considering a ceasefire proposal. I find it pretty strange that you murder your counterpart negotiators as they’re considering a proposal. But this is actually normal behavior of the Israeli government. They have done this repeatedly now that they murder precisely those who are negotiating. And the United States has been party to this. That’s really. Awful and dangerous and absurd. What was that war in Iran about? It was a disgrace. But what it was about was Israel trying to stop a negotiated solution to the question of Iran’s nuclear program. And people should remember that the. US bombing of Iran took place a couple of days before what was supposed to be the sixth round of negotiations with Iran that were reportedly progressing productively. There were serious things to be discussed. And Israel typically went in and assassinated as many people as it could. That were involved in those negotiations that were in senior reaches of the Iranian government. And then the United States joined in by the United States, I mean, President Trump and the military joined in. In the midst of a negotiating process, Israel murdered the negotiators of Hezbollah. Israel has repeatedly murdered counterparts who would negotiate. Israel’s right murdered its own prime minister who was trying to negotiate a peace, Yitzhak Rabin. This is the mode of operation of this extremist Israeli government that our politicians support to the hilt and they do it. Knowing that what Israel is propounding is an absolutely extraordinary and deadly policy. And just to put it one more time, what Netanyahu and his coalition represent is a claim that is called Greater Israel or Eretz Yisrael Hashlema, which in Hebrew is. The Greater Israel. And the claim is that Israel will control all of the lands that were the British Palestine. Britain, after World War One, took imperial control over Palestine. As usual, Britain left a disaster. This is Britain’s way in the world. Instead of a Palestinian state for the eight million Palestinian Arabs and a Israeli state for the eight-million Israeli Jews, what Netanyahu and his coalition want is that Israel controls all of the land, including, therefore, half the population that are Palestinian Arabs. Of course, they want to expel them. They’re very clear about that. They want them out. They want an Arab-free land of Israel. It’s unbelievably violent and destructive what they’re doing. And this is what we are defending. So, again, Netanyahu came to the United Nations last week. And he was very clear for any of these defenders of Israel in the United States. Netanyahu said there will never be a state of Palestine. Now, are we really signing up to that? Because that’s signing up to mass war crimes, to genocidal actions and to perpetual war for the United states. But honestly, until today, President Trump hasn’t said anything about that. The whole vast majority of the world says, of course, there needs to be a state of Palestine. Are you kidding? There are eight million Palestinian Arabs. What else is there going to be? The International Court of Justice says this. The UN General Assembly says this, the UN Security Council says this except the United States government, which says, no, we protect Israel in this. Murderous path that they’re on.

Tucker [00:57:04] It’s remarkable. It’s nauseating to me and shocking to me that any Christian could support this, especially with the enthusiasm they do. And I, you know, God is going to have to judge them. But I just think that’s.

Jeff Sachs [00:57:19] It’s a little strange, by the way, even when when when. Yes, it is a little stranger when when Senator Cruz, when you asked him about this, he couldn’t even quote the Bible. Right. By the way. He you you asked them and he said, well, God says that I will bless those who bless Israel, which is, by the way not what Genesis says. No, it says I will bless those who bless Abraham. This is a little bit different. And he couldn’t even quote the passage properly. But it was in that name that he said, this is why we have to do it. It’s like you just heard or just we were just listening to Lindsey Graham. They can’t even quote this so-called scripture that’s telling them what to do. It’s so preposterous.

Tucker [00:58:17] Well, and it said its effect is to is to really distort American politics. I thought we agreed during the Russia hysteria of the last administration that it was wrong and illegal, actually, for a foreign government to control our politics. Like, I thought we all agreed on that. I’ve always felt that way. No matter what the government, Russia was not controlling our politics, that was the lie there. But the truth was that’s wrong. And now. It seems like our entire national conversation is about this tiny, totally irrelevant little country with one great city, Jerusalem, but geopolitically irrelevant country. And that’s at the behest of a foreign government who’s openly saying, you don’t agree with us, we’re going to censor you. How can that stand? How can a foreign leader call for censorship of American citizens and then all those little satellite groups, the ADL, APAC, all of them? All push that. And then the Congress obeys. Like, that seems to me that’s got to be a red line.

Jeff Sachs [00:59:21] There’s so many big lies in all that is said day by day. But the biggest big lie in this regard is, as you noted rightly, to say that those who are against Israel are anti-Semites.

Tucker [00:59:37] So exactly.

Jeff Sachs [00:59:38] I happen to be Jewish. I am aghast at what Israel is doing because Israel is a state. It is, first of all, not a religion. And least of all is it a reflection of 2000 years of Jewish culture, which is not what Israel Is about at all, and to say that it’s anti-Semitic to oppose a genocide or to oppose all of these wars that Israel is provoking is obviously a big lie, but that is what is propounded. And it’s really, it’s strange to hear this, especially because… When one understands the history of Israel and the history of Zionism, which is the political philosophy calling for the state of Israel, people should know it’s a little, may sound a little strange in our current context. Religious Jews were against Zionism at the start. This wasn’t even a Jewish religious movement at all. This was a group of basically secular Jews in Eastern Europe, and the rabbis of the day told them, no, don’t do this. This is a bad idea. This is not what Judaism is. This is just going to create… A tremendous amount of trouble. And so this idea that being critical of Israel is somehow being anti-Semitic, which is what is being used as a cudgel against American society right now and against American universities, but pretty much across the board, is not only wrong and absurd, but completely against the true history of these issues. There’s a lot that can be said about it, but one thing that is an illustration of this point. Israel emerged from British imperialism. Actually, the modern Zionism, so-called, which was the idea of creating a Jewish state, was a British Christian idea. In the 19th century, it did not start as a Jewish idea. It was a British Christian idea. In a Jewish tradition of 2,000 years, Jews were to live anywhere, and they were to make their faith anywhere at their local synagogue. They didn’t have to be anywhere in particular. There was no land idolatry. There was just a set of religious and ethical tenets. That was it. And there was not only no mass call to have a Jewish state, that was viewed as heretical, a term that you used earlier. In one of the guiding texts of religious Judaism, the Talmud, there is a part called the Three Oaths, which rabbis in the early centuries AD wrote and compiled, and this part, Ketubot 111, says, don’t return to Israel en masse. Don’t, because it will just create trouble. Live peacefully where you are. That’s actually a Talmudic injunction that the rabbis followed for a couple thousand years, basically. So this whole idea of the modern state of Israel was actually a Christian idea, specifically a British Christian idea. And it was an Anglican reverend. Kind of gave this idea to Theodor Herzl, who was a secular Jew in Vienna in the last years of the 19th century. Well, just without going into all of the detailed history, in 1917, Britain did a typical British imperial thing. During World War I, it promised Palestine repeatedly to different groups. Britain is nothing but deceitful in its imperial methods, so it promised the land of Palestine to the Arabs, first in what are called the McMahon Sharif letters. It promised the Middle East to be divided with the French in what’s called the Sykes-Picot Treaty, and then in 1917. Under lobbying pressure of British and American Zionists or British Zionists who said, let’s bring America into this war, thinking that it would be good, announced in what’s called the Balfour Declaration, that there should be a Jewish homeland in Palestine after World War I. Remember, this was not even British land. This was Ottoman territory, but Britain being the British Empire said, we’re going to determine the fate of this and announce in the Balfour Declaration that there should be a Jewish homeland. Now, there was one Jew in the British cabinet in 1917, Edwin Montagu. What was that one Jew’s reaction to the Balfour Declaration, which was issued by the Foreign Secretary? It was to oppose strongly, strenuously, the Belfour Declaration. What did Montagu say in a famous letter? Why are you doing this? We don’t need a Jewish homeland. Jews are a religion. They’re not a nation. They don’t a nation, and if you do this, you make me seem like I’m not British. I am first British, thank you. I happen to be Jewish, but I’m British. If you say that now, the Jews are in the state of… Palestine, that’s where their homeland is, you’re going to make it seem like I’m less British. And this is how many people have felt over time. And I, as an American, completely, totally resent when Netanyahu says, we’re the state of the Jewish people. Nonsense. That’s even, it’s revolting. I happen to be Jewish, but Israel is not my state. The United States is my state, and it’s revolting to be told otherwise. Who the heck is he to tell me this? Who the heck is the Israeli government to declare such a thing? Complete nonsense. And so the history of all of this is completely different from what is thought and the claim that it is Semitic. To be against the ghastly things that Israel is doing, stopping food shipments into Gaza to starve people, destroying all of the infrastructure to make Gaza a place of two million people unlivable, murdering more than 60 million people, the significant majority of whom are women and children. And then to be told, no, you can’t say you’re against that, that’s anti-Semitic. This is a preposterous propaganda, not a reality. It has nothing to do with this in reality and Zionism is not Judaism, it is a political ideology and the extremist Zionism of Netanyahu and his cronies, Smotrich and Ben-Gavir in particular. Who are murderous members of this government. This is an extremism that is completely disgusting and has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish beliefs or Jewish ethics.

Tucker [01:08:51] I think one of the reasons that religious authorities in Europe at the time of the Balfour Declaration, some of them thought this was a bad idea, is because the point of being in the land of Israel biblically was because the temple was in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount, right? Where Abraham brought Isaac. And that was the center of the religion until 70 AD when the Romans destroyed the city and the temple. Now, so, and then subsequently, of course, the rise of Islam, Al-Aqsa Mosque, third holiest place in Islam was built on that site and the foundation is called the Western Wall, the Wailing Wall, all of our politicians go to. The question of rebuilding the temple is almost never discussed publicly in the United States, but there is a huge effort, by the way, bankrolled by a lot of Christians, just to be completely clear. In the state of Texas, for example, there’s a whole foundation, a number of foundations designed to abet this. But there is this kind of behind the scenes push to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, which would require destroying the third holiest place in Islam, the mosque, the Al-Aqsa Mosque. I’ve talked to a bunch of people about this who think that it’s imminent, that it is not crazy to think that that mosque would be blown up in order to make way for the third temple. Do you fear that? If that happens, what happens next?

Jeff Sachs [01:10:13] Well, the extremism on display in Israel is, as I said, the most lawless in the world today. Israel is the rogue state of the whole world. Israel flagrantly violates every limit. Israel goes to war where it wants to. It murders foreign leaders where and when it wants too. It acts with complete impunity and disdain. And Netanyahu thinks that he controls, and maybe he does, the U.S. Government so that whatever he does he thinks he can get away with. So there’s no doubt that there is a third temple movement that is part of this coalition. No doubt that they’re are people in this government who have absolutely no limit, who talk openly about, well, they’ve already said, to make Gaza completely uninhabitable and unlivable. That is ethnic cleansing or genocide or a combination of the two. Well, such people do not have limits. Would this go well? For Israel, no, this would be suicidal. But zealotry can be suicidal, and there’s a lot of zealoty.

Tucker [01:11:47] By the way, the word comes from the region, zealots were suicidal religion extremists.

Jeff Sachs [01:11:53] And it comes from, unfortunately, even the ancient history of Israel. Many people then and today did not think it was the greatest idea to rebel against the Roman Empire. The Jews ended up destroying themselves. Champion a mass suicide in a place called Masada. But to have a belief system where you’re championing mass suicide is a little weird. Maybe the behavior wasn’t so prudent. Maybe it wasn’t so wise to be as completely extremist as you thought. And it’s not so wise for Israel to be completely extremist and disdainful of every other place in the world, thinking that the United States has your back, so to speak. When in fact, as we said, it’s a little strange that the U.S. Politicians do every order of Israel up until now. But the American people are fed up with this. They’re disgusted with this. And eventually in our political system, that tends to move the politics a bit when you have 70% of Americans saying, stop, this is hellish. What Israel is doing is completely terrible. That will eventually even enter the consciousness of our political class. And so if you ask me, are there forces in Israel that could do this? Absolutely. And there are those who would do it tomorrow. This is a coalition government that. Caused Trump to say that annexation is impossible because they were on the verge of essentially annexing the Palestinian lands of the so-called West Bank, the West Bank of Jordan, completely against international law, completely against UN Security Council resolutions, completely against the International Court of Justice, completely against reality because it’s millions of people. Living there that they would have to murder or ethnically cleanse or completely suppress, which apparently they’re ready to do for all of them because they say these are all hateful people and they don’t even count how many people they’re killing in fact. So yes, of course they’re ready to what you said.

Tucker [01:14:55] One of the costs apart from the cost to the American social fabric, which is profound, the cost to the US Treasury, also profound. It does seem like we’re in a moment when the world is completely realigning. I know that you are right in the middle of that and have been your whole life. And so I think you see it a lot more clearly since you’re out of the country so often, but the huge population centers and the economic centers of the world, which would be India, China, to some extent Russia, but. Indonesia, like huge countries, bigger than the United States, economies growing much faster. They all seem to be kind of aligning against the United states and Israel. Or am I imagining that?

Jeff Sachs [01:15:37] Well, let me just say with regard to this Israeli genocide and extremism, almost the entire world knows what’s happening, sees what’s happened and is against what’s happen. In this regard, the only significant state that supports Israel is the United States. So it’s essentially two against the world. As I said, I. Go to the UN a lot and I watch vote after vote and there have been several votes in the last couple of years showing that this is the overwhelming view of the world that Israel needs to end its rogue behavior. It needs to stop the mass murder. It needs stop the starvation. It needs. To return to its borders, stop the wars all around it and enable the state of Palestine to exist and to function. And just to give you a few points on this, in several resolutions calling for a state of Palestine or Palestinian political self-determination, there have typically been out of the 193 UN member states around 180 saying, of course Palestine has the right of political self-determination. And there have typically been eight or at most 10 opposed to that. So around 180 against 10. Who are the 10? The 10 of course are Israel and the United States. And then Micronesia. Nauru. Micro, yeah. Yes, Micronesia, Naur, Vanuatu, Polau, Papua New Guinea. If people wanna follow them on a map, these are tiny dots in the Pacific Ocean. These are states where the U.S. Simply buys the vote because there may be 10,000 people, 12,000 people in Naur or some. Count like that. So the U.S. Just pays for the vote. Or in the case of Micronesia, they’re bound by compact to vote with the United States. And the only countries of any size that have voted any size at all other than these tiny, tiny dots with the U S and Israel have been Argentina, Paraguay, and once in a while a country or two in Europe, that’s it. The whole rest of the world is clear about all of this. And when you add up the populations in the countries on these two sides of the vote, and I’ve done that each time, of course, it’s about 95% of the World population saying, get on with it. Two states, a state of Palestine, a State of Israel. Israel needs to stop its mass murder. It needs to return to the borders of the 4th of June, 1967, according to international law. It needs stop killing or ethnically cleansing or suppressing the Palestinian population. That’s about 95%. And 5% is the U S and Israel. The U S by itself is 4.1% of the World population. Israel’s tiny, like you said, those islands are tiny. You add in Argentina and Paraguay and a couple of others and you get maybe to 5% of The World population, we’re completely isolated in this. And people should also understand there are so many lies that are told, especially as in our own. Zionists dominated mass media that has been recklessly pro Netanyahu and this extremism for a long time. But one of the repeated lies is there’s no one to talk to. There’s no way that there could be a peaceful Palestinian state. There’s not way that the Arabs could ever be a partner in this. Completely ridiculously the opposite. Since 2002, there has been what is called the Arab Peace Initiative, which has said that based on two states, there would be normal relations between the Arab countries and Israel. In other words, normalization and peace based on a state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel. And that has been propounded by Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Arab countries nonstop. It has been supported nonstop by what’s called the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, which is the 57 Muslim majority countries of the world. They say, yes, normalization, two states. Israel stops its rampage. Israel stops it’s delusions of greater Israel. Israel stops, it’s ethnic cleansing and murder of the Palestinian people. Then there can be peace. It’s not even hard. This is what the whole world says. Now the United States has used its muscle, its dollars, its threats. Even giving visas, it denied visas to the Palestine Authority to come to the United Nations last week to be part of the debate about this issue. It wouldn’t even grant visas because the US has been so in lockstep protecting this extremism up until now that we just are stuck. And everything that said that this is anti-Semitic, that there’s no one to talk to, that there is no possibility of peace, it’s all lies. And now about 155 countries formally recognize Palestine, including despite the ardent US pressure of recent months, Britain and France and Australia. And a number of other European countries just last week said there has to be a state of Palestine. But until this moment, the Trump administration won’t say the obvious truth because to this moment we’re still trapped in this hold of this extraordinary giveaway of American foreign policy and the whole American military and intelligence operations to an extremist rogue government.

Tucker [01:23:31] Netanyahu is despised, I think, by a lot of people in the US government bragging that you control Donald Trump. It’s hard to imagine a more self-destructive thing, but he did that a lot, including recently. So I just wonder how long, since he basically serves at the pleasure of the United States, that that country couldn’t exist without, not for a week without US backing. How long can Bibi keep his job if he’s despised by the US government and he’s got a fraction, he’s a lot of political problems within Israel and he is despised the world. How does he keep going?

Jeff Sachs [01:24:19] It is absolutely remarkable. I’m sure that he is despised, but he actually to this day continues to get his way, including in the last few days. Even when President Trump put forward a plan for Gaza, which was a kind of a half a plan, but it had, and it has certain things right. Especially stopping the fighting and disarmament of Hamas, completely right. But it leaves out the most crucial point, which is a state of Palestine to live their lives. That was, of course, Israel’s continued and Netanyahu’s continued power. And what happened was, the administration, President Trump, briefed Arab leaders at the end of last week on this plan. They said, well, there are a number of things that are good with this. And then Trump met with Netanyahu and Ron Dermer, who is one of these forces of right-wing extremism in Israel. And he’s an American born. Advisor to Netanyahu, who was Israel’s ambassador to the United States for a long time. He knows how to pull strings of American politicians wherever those strings and however they arise. And they changed the plan as they met and basically rewrote key parts of what Trump had told the Arabs to say, oh, oh yes, yes, and we should remember that Israel will remain. Control over Gaza. They changed what they had actually briefed the leaders and then unilaterally announced something different. And this is just now being disclosed in recent hours. This is so typical. To this day, there has not been an independent US foreign policy. It doesn’t exist. And so when you ask how long can Netanyahu last, well, we’re still waiting. For the US government to declare its independence, but it hasn’t done so yet. It hasn’t taken the most basic measures to do so. Could it do so? In a blink of an eye. And when President Trump said in the clip that you showed, I won’t allow Israel to annex the West Bank, of course he can determine that. So he’s completely right to say that. It’s both a completely accurate statement. It is the right thing to say what President Trump said, and it’s completely 100%. Within his power to say it, because Israel can’t take one step without the US backing. But President Trump should say along with that that there will be a state of Palestine so there can be peace. And that he hasn’t said because of all of the forces of Israeli control over the White House and Congress. He hasn’t. Virtually all the rest of the world has said. If he says it, there will be peace. He can make peace. He’s right when he says, I won’t allow it. It sounds like bombast. How can the United States say it won’t allowed Israel to do something? Well, the fact is the United states can say it because Israel can’t take one step without the US protection. And just as a very practical matter, Palestine, which is recognized by more than 150 countries, applied 14 years ago for membership in the United Nations. And in that process, you make an application to the secretary general of the UN, then the secretary-general refers it to a membership committee, which is the UN Security Council acting as a membership Committee based on the recommendation of that membership committee than the UN security council. Consider this. So 11 years ago, 14 years ago in 2011, Palestine made its application and the committee of membership said, yes, Palestine has all of the attributes of statehood. It has a permanent population. That’s the Palestinian Arabs. It has boundaries, which are the legal boundaries of the 4th of June, 1967, but not the. Boundaries of Israeli illegal occupation, but the legal boundaries, 4th of June, 1967. And it wants to enter the UN as a UN charter abiding country. Those are the criteria. So the membership committee said, yes, of course Palestine qualifies. At the time. What did the US government do under Obama? Well, Obama was under complete Israel control like all of American presidents are. And so he said to the Palestinians, no, no, don’t push so hard. You’ll get it. You’ll it very soon, but right now just ask to be an observer. You don’t have to be a member. So the Palestinians listened to the. Wonderful president of the United States and they took observer status. Of course, there was no follow-up. This is the endless charade of Israel and American politics. Israel dead set against the state of Palestine, the US doing whatever Israel says. And so it didn’t come up again until last year, 2024. And then. Waiting 13 years and suffering a genocide. Thank you. The Palestinians reapplied. Since they already had the decision of the membership committee, it went straight to the UN Security Council. What happened in the UN security council? This is under Biden. Of course, they vetoed statehood. It was the one veto. So there was a unanimous vote 12 to nothing against. Two abstentions and the US veto. And then it went to the general assembly where I already explained you had an overwhelming vote of the whole world community for Palestinian statehood. But in the UN, you need a membership, a vote of the UN Security Council where the US has a veto. So just to say, not only can president Trump stop. Annexation of the West Bank, as he said he intends to do, bravo. He could also make a state of Palestine within about 10 minutes. He would convene the 15 members of the UN Security Council and lift the US veto. And there would be a unanimous vote of the U.N. Security Council. And Palestine would enter as the 194th UN member state. And on that basis, Israel would have to withdraw because Israel. Would then be in a fight with the whole world, which it can’t be in. So this is quite straightforward. If we wanna make peace, it’s absolutely possible. If we want to follow Israel, we are following the path of perpetual war.

Tucker [01:32:30] Jeffrey Sachs of Columbia University, thank you for taking all this time.

Jeff Sachs [01:32:34] Well, it’s always great to be with you, Tucker. I appreciate it.

Tucker [01:32:38] Thanks a lot. I’ll see you soon. We’ll be back next Wednesday.